Interview with Adnan Shihab-Eldin

Let us start recording my name is Reem Alali and today is the 22nd February 2021 - we are in Salmiya at the American University of Kuwait and this the first session of our interview with Dr. Adnan Shihab-Eldin conducted as part // of the Oral History project at the American University of Kuwait - Dr. Adnan thank you for agreeing to do the interview can you just mention your name, date and place of birth and the nationality

My name is Adnan Ahmed Shihab-Eldin, official date of birth is 1st November 1943 but in my current passport it is written 5th October 1943 and that has to do with the invasion and liberation, changing the day and month, I might talk about it later.

Hmm

I was born in Yafa and the reason I was not born in Kuwait was that my father – if you allow me - came to Kuwait in 1936 with – him and three of his Palestinian teacher colleagues that the government of Kuwait has requested, to support – hm - in establishing or systematizing education in Kuwait in a better way. Because there were schools since the establishment of Mubarkiya School in the twenties but the curricula and the schools were not set up in a programmed manner. So in 36 there was a major interest in education and Kuwait merchants offered to pay extra taxes, about half a percent – I think they paid %4, so they said we will pay half a percent and most of it will be directed to support education, and the first step they took was to establish Majlis Al Maref. It was headed by Sheikh Abdullah Al Jaber and aa they agreed to request for teachers from Palestine to systematize and modernize education in Kuwait. And a letter was sent at that time in early 36 to the so-called executive president in Palestine, his name was Almoufti

Hmm

Alhussaini and aaa approvals were granted despite initial objection from the British. They blocked this because they feared the increasing Arab nationalism movement in Kuwait, and Palestine had revolutions and such, but at the end with persistence from aa I believe the reason behind this persistence was that merchants and Sheikhs from Kuwait aa went to Palestine

Hmm

And learned about the quality of life and that it is developed, especially in the field of education and and aa they agreed to request support from Palestine so – my father was named head of mission, that consisted of four individuals

Who were the four individuals?

My father Ahmed Shihab-Eldin and his three colleagues; Mohammad Jaber Hadeed

Hmm

And aa Mohammad Almaghraby and aa Khames Najem, there was another person instead of Khames but the British objected to him, his name was Tho Al Kafel or something. They objected to him, so he was replaced with Khames Najem. They came in the year 36, travelled by land through Iraq and they were given a great welcome as I was told, and this was documented in aa many documentaries in Kuwa in Kuwait TV. I mean it was a kind of charade

(Alali laughs)

They show you how they arrived in this wood Ford cars (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and they welcomed them on aa in Abdali or somewhere there and they brought them in and were rejoiced in them and so on. Anyway, they came and established the formal education system, what does formal education system mean? It means they used a curriculum that is mainly from Iraq

Hmm

But it was reinforced, meaning curriculum meaning teaching books and such, and they tested the students in Mubarkiya and divided them into classes based on their levels and they started giving basic classes in aa Arabic language, English language, religious studies, social studies, math and sciences and so on based on their level, and then they started establishing schools and and my father became what you can call the education director

Hmm

Meaning he was working directly under Majlis Al Maref, and he of course, became the person in charge, every year they brought in teachers and then they opened, launched education for – girls

Hmm

In 39 I think aa my uncle

Ah

They had someone working with them named Mohammed Jaber Hadeed and he brought his sister along

Hmm

Which was my mother, in the year 40

Hmm

After one year she married my father, they met in Kuwait, and aa she married my father, and my elder sister was born in Kuwait

Hmm

In the year 42 in the Americani Hospital. The Palestinian mission left in 43 in early 43 because the Egyptian mission came in

Hmm

And they decided to leave this responsibility to the - Egyptian - mission aaaa although they were happy and the - the the Majlis Al Maref was happy but there was an exchange at the political level with the Egyptian government

Hmm

I believe that the Egyptian government offered to pay the salaries

Ahhh

So this made it possible

Hmm

The process - the salaries at that time were considered relatively low in todays’ standards but they were considered higher than the government employees’ salaries

Ah

So a Majlis Al Maref teacher got a decent salary

Hmm

And lived in a decent residence and so on, so my father left in 43 and I was born in 43 in the city of Yafa, after few years my father who worked in the Arab Bank

Hmm

In Yafa, and then when events happened, he left and moved to Baghdad at first and then to Basra, we stayed in Basra and I attended primary school in Basra

aa so aa just to go back a little before we move forward aa how long did you stayed in Yafa?

Four or five years

aaa

I left when I was – I don’t remember anything from it

Do you remember…

Other than…

Simple memories

I only remember an incident when my father came in injured

Hmm

He was bandaged they ask how? They said that the Jews blew up this – I do not know if I remember or I was told this

Hmm

You know at this age

Yes

It is hard to tell the difference. So, we left early, and and because my father worked in Iraq, they made arrangements, he went to Cairo and from Cairo we took – it was the first time I take an airplane in my life, I was five years old

Do you remember anything from this experience?

Yes, I believe the airplane was in 48 or 49, 48

Hmm

We took the airplane from Cairo to Beirut – or in 49 I am not sure. Yes, we took an airplane to Beirut, and from Beirut we took cars, I do not remember, I remember I was in a nuns school in Baghdad me and my elder sister

(Alali laughs)

The one older than me, my father and mother put us in a nuns school

In Baghdad

In Baghdad we stayed for six months

How was the school?

I do not remember details – I was young, five years old maybe in 48 but what I remember is that they were very strict, and I learned English at this early age

Ahh

And I learn math well

Hmm

And good English in such a young age, this, and this had a reason behind the move? When the bank opened their first branch in Basra

Hmm

They asked my father to move to Basra and he welcomed the idea for many reasons at first, and because it was close to Kuwait where he had many connections and aaa so he agreed. We went to Basra, and I was enrolled in primary school, at my age - I was enrolled in first grade because in the nuns school I was in kindergarten or or meaning I was not - at the right age

So, what was the reason for choosing the nuns school by aa your parents?

My father is a teac- my father studied aaa at the teacher’s colleague in Baghdad before coming to Kuwait and before that

Hmm

I mean he got his academic credentials in Iraq and that is why he choose Iraqi curricula

Hmm

When he came to Kuwait in 36, because he was very knowledgeable – he graduated from Dar Al Moalemen in Baghdad and taught in Hillah and Baghdad. I mean, of course, he told me this and told me that this is the reason behind choosing the Iraqi curriculum in education in Kuwait when they came to Kuwait afterwards. So – selecting the nuns school was because he was interested in education and I believe we arrived in the middle of the school year and we were in kindergarten – and it seems he knew people at the bank who suggested or told him this – because it was not the start of the school year

Hmm

We were in the middle of the school year and kindergarten – my sister I believe was in the first grade

Hmm

They enrolled her in first grade. When we moved to Basra, they enrolled me in a primary school, whose name I remember, Asim bin Dalaf in in the old Basra on an old road and I walked from our house, our house was in between Basra and Alashar

Do you remember how the house was like?

Yes, a house aa recently built but in a traditional Iraqi style two floors and it had a yard and and the yard, I mean the kitchen like old Kuwaiti houses, a yard and a kitchen, the kitchen was separate, and the bathroom is on one side and the living room and the bedrooms are close to the yard and I believe there was a rooftop where we slept during the summer

Hmm

There was a place up there, there was a room or two, but it was mostly for sleeping or drying the laundry not sure where – I was young at that time

And at that time, it was aa your father, mother and sister

And my sister

And yourself

Only my elder sister when we first arrived in Basra. The year we moved to Basra my sister who was six years younger than me was born. The year 49, she was born there on our second year. I have two sisters who were born in Basra and a sister born in Damascus and my elder sister, the one who is older than me was born in Kuwait, in the Americani Hospital

Oh

They were one of the first people to go to aa the Americani Hospital aa anyway, when aa we moved to Basra I was enrolled in school, this is the point I would like to mention to you. Because my father was interested in education so I came home upset on my first first day, my father asked me why? I told him that what they were teaching us in class was what I already learned in the nuns kindergarten

(Alali laughs)

He asked me how? He asked me few questions and he took me the next day the school’s principal.

(Alali laughs)

He told him – I was enrolled in first grade – he told the school principal this is my son all what you are teaching him he had already learned

(Alali laughs)

And he knew he would ask how? He told him test him. The principal called the Arabic, English and math teachers, look at how simple life was back then

(Alali laughs)

He called all three of them and told them test him on first grade curriculum

(Alali laughs)

They tested me and it seems they were happy with me

(Alali laughs)

They told me to move to the second grade

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

And this came to my advantage, me and my sister were in the same grade

Hmm

So, we competed and studied together and helped each other out and – competed

(Alali laughs)

And this made is much easier for my father and mother, it made it much easier on them instead of you know one in first grade and the other in second grade

But your sister was not aa

My sister’s nature is, she she she was happy

Hmm

I would, maybe sometimes she felt that I was competing with her

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) but perhaps, I believe sometimes she told me she was not all the way positive

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) All the time, but things went ahead, and I studied in primary school in Basra

In Asim bin Dalaf school

Asim bin Dalaf, I don’t know where it was, but it was on a road like this

Do you remember the school for example?

I remember it

How it looked?

The school was not too far from our house. Our house was in a neighborhood not in the old Basra, the area between Basra and Alashar on the river, Alashar river, it was modern, and they built a new road and we were - my father liked to exercise

Hmm

He was jogging in the morning from our home to Alashar and back, perhaps it was two three kilometers roundtrip. Afterwards - when I got a little older, possibly in third grade, he took me with him in the morning and I learned from him until this day, today I wal – ran - walked five kilometers

(Alali laughs)

And yesterday I rode a bicycle for fifteen kilometers. I learned from my father the the the the love of sports. He used to take me from school, and I used to walk to school

Hmm

I crossed the road. There were flat lands on one side, and then I went to the old town via the old road and I met my friends, my classmates and we went to school and outside outside the school there was a huge yard where we played volleyball or football, what volleyball? A rope and a ball made out of paper

Ohh

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) they did not have money to buy a real ball, so they made one out of paper

Yea

We were – a – I had teachers that I remember, and I remember a student, he was a student in primary school and a member of the communist party

(Alali laughs)

In primary school I believe he was older than me in the fifth or sixth grade

Ahh

And the military police came to school once and took him, he was huge, and the teachers were either Baathists or Arab nationalists. Most of them were organized and – involved in politics, so we learned politics from them

Yes

Not just education

And the teachers were mostly from Iraq?

Yes, they were all Iraqis, Iraqi teachers but they were tough

Yeah

According to what I remember, when the geography teacher spoke, the history teacher

Intelligent

Intelligent and politically committed

Yes

They were either from the - and they were all against the monarchy and against Nuri as-Said as I remember

And they had clear political orientations

They had partisan orientations against the monarchy and against – the ones I remember, I mean. We were saturated with these ideas, and we were only in prim – in in primary school (Shihab-Eldin laughs). When my father moved aa he stayed for a while, and they asked him to move to the Arab Bank in Damascus. he told them yes although during this time his friends from Kuwait, they had assets in Kuw – in Basrah; Alsager, Al Alghanim and the Sheikhs and there was talk about him going back to Kuwait and he told them enshalah but he was not eager because when he left Kuwait, he was a little upset

Hmm

About the Egyptian mission issue

Yes

And the Palestinian mission, but he kept strong ties. Then we moved to Damascus after one year – I studied middle school in Damascus it was difficult

Hmm

Harder than the Iraqi curriculum. During the first or two years I was struggling

Hmm

Especially with Arabic language, they were much stronger in Arabic language than than – in Iraq

Yes

In ma - math I did very well

Hmm

In English language I did even better because they start teaching English late

Hmm

They had a much better curriculum in science, I learned a lot from them. Anyway // in 57 Sheikh // Sabah Al Salem it was was in the era of Abdullah Al-Salem, Sheikh Sabah Al-Salem, Sheikh Saad insisted on my father through Abdulrahman Alateeq - Alateeqi

Hmm

Abo Anwar asked him to come to Kuwait and that they want him and insist on it. They asked him to come and visit and he took a flight and came back and said alright I will let you complete your studies for this year and go to Kuwait because this is our country and we do not have

Before we move to this phase, in in Damascus how many years did you stay approximately?

Four years

Four years in

Middle school

Middle education

Middle education in school – at first, I believe I started in – I started in a school and finished in another school, the first school was splendid

Hmm

I was called the fifth preparation there. Middle school was called first preparation, second preperat - the first preparation was in the immigrant area, Baghdad Street area in – a beautiful building in the street area – the second preparation close by and the fifth preparation was close to the Umayyad Mosque

Hmm

I used to walk from our apart - apartment, we rented an apartment and pass by the sou - the old souks every day

Hmm

Which was surrounded by – the vegetable market and the copper market

(Alali laughs)

And the jewelry market. When I got to the Umayyad Mosque and after the Umayyad Mosque from the back, I took a left turn in Dar Al Hekma or Al Hekma Library

Aha

A famous library that has old books. My father used to encourage me to go there and read this or that book - because you cannot buy them. These books were hard hard copy and at that time it was hard to find such books, so I used to actually go to the library sometimes and – take the books and sit and read a little of al-ʿIqd al-Farīd , Kalīla wa-Dimna

Aha

Things like that, this was in middle school

Hmm

Aaa then we moved to the second preparation which was little more modern and and closer to our home and we came to Kuwait afterwards and I enrolled in Shuwaikh secondary school

Aaa so just to go back a little bit – in in Iraq you mentioned that your sister was with you in school, was the school mixed-gender or you mean just…in the same grade level

No she was in school – school no

So just same grade level

Just the same grade yes and then I had two more sisters my sister Awatef and my sister Aydah who is a professor at Kuwait University

Hmm

My sister Awatef is also a professor at Kuwait University, but she moved to Canada with her husband

Yes

Aaaa

And you moved to Damascus was there a difference in your lifestyle –

At first at first

In Damascus?

The first few months I was upset and and missing my friends and the the flat lands. We used to love the summer and went to—in the summer my father used to take us to Damascus

Ohh

Every summer we used to spend it in Damascus or Beirut

Hmm aa on the –

We travelled by land we took a train from from from Basra to Baghdad and in Baghdad there were companies like greyhound nowadays

Hmm

You know the greyhound? Companies named Nairn and Angirley that can cross unpaved deserts, it had air conditioning and toilets and they looked like the grey – greyhound

Yeah

They cross the desert in Altashoul, I do not know how they crossed, since there were no paved roads once they left Baghdad and until they reach their destination. The last last paved road was in Alrutbah and Alramady, Alramday then Alrutbah and then they crossed the desert until we saw the mountains of Damascus and we cheered up saying that after the mountains of Damascus comes green land

Yes

Again, after crossing the desert

00: 20: 17

Well since you mentioned the vacations aa what did you do for example in primary and middle school, what were your holiday rituals for example within your family or the community you lived in, holidays like Eid Alfitr and –

Of course, holid – the - Ramadan

Hmm

Ramadan and th- Eid Alfitr the big Eid was the best occasion for us children to be happy, because our parents brought us new clothes and shoes, I bought books aa we ate desserts

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

What was your favorite dessert as a child?

aaa

Or favorite dish

The the those weird dishes that they made, the the Maamoul, the the dishes they made at home

Hmm

In those days they did not buy – at home, I mean, the the the Maamoul which is made with dates

Hmm

Or with walnuts, we used to love it, they sprinkled white sugar on top and guests would arrive, we get excited because when guests arrived, they give them sweets (Shihab-Eldin laughs) so we would take some (Shihab-Eldin laughs), what to do, we were kids – I remember in Basra my sister reminded me, they made me a surprise when I retired

Aha

All our family members, all across the world, we had a zoom session

Ohh

So my elder sister Afaf reminded me, she is in Dubai now with her daughters not able to come back due to Covid

Hmm

So – she reminded me that one of the chores that me and my sisters had to do during the summer vacation

Aha

That when my father, God have mercy on him, napped in the after - after lunch, they take a nap

Hmm

They rest and take a siesta, it was hot, no AC just a fan

Hmm

There was just a fan - but the fan sometimes is not enough so they put wet bed sheets

Hmm

So our role me and my sister was to take the hand fan (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and stand next to my father (Shihab-Eldin laughs) (Alali laughs) God have mercy on him and wave the fan and – and make sure that the fan and the bedsheets have water on them so they can cool him off

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) she reminded me about it, and I told her about how we used to play on the carpet on the floor in Basra

And what were your hobbies at that time?

Reading

Hmm

It was number 1 and then I learned how to play chess in – Iraq during my last year in primary school, I insisted on my father to buy me a chess board and one time we went - I believe we went to Almarjel this is a neighborhood – British British – close to the port called Almarjel

Hmm

It had modern shops and so they bought me a set of chess. I started learning how to play, reading, my father subscripted to all the latest Egyptian newsp - magazines, Akher Sa’a

Hmm

And Almosawer

Hmm

And afterwards we subscribed to the first issue of Sinbad magazine – when it came out

Ahh

Not sure if – Sinbad Magazine came out in the early fifties and Sinbad Magazine was I believe weekly or monthly, I forgot

Hmm

So, when we knew that it was arriving on this day, me and my sister waited at the door because my father went to Alashar to get it from the the the bookstore, from the bookstore that imported it and where we made the subscription. At that time, they did not offer home delivery, so my father went to get it, so we use to entertain ourselves with reading, and I think in Damascus more than in Basra, even in Basra during the last year, we started reading Al-Hilal Najib Al-Rihani novels

Hmm

In – in Damascus more so – how many books we read became part of the summer holiday – reading came at number one aa in the summer when we were in Basra, the journey to Damascus and Beirut was a great opportunity

You took summer vacations

We plan for it, because my mother had family living in Damascus and they had a big house on the road to Damascus, my mother was half Kurdish, half Turkish, and half Palestinian, I don’t know

(Alali laughs)

Mixed

(Alali laughs)

And there was a house on the edge, edge of Damascus close to a mosque and there was a small river, not a big one, like a canal

Ohh

We used to play there, they came aaa - when we were in Basra my cousins who are also Kuwaitis

Hmm

There were – wer - I told you that my father married my mother, so they were

Yes

In Kuwait and they came with us to Basra

Ahh

He also worked in the Arab Bank and they also went back directly to Kuwait not Damascus, my father went to /// Damascus at first and then Kuwait so -

And in the - and in the -

In the summer we used to play with them in the canal and play aa get hurt – climb mountains. One time I went back and found out it became a crowded residential neighborhood and all these memories went away, nothing left of it. Yeah, because it was on the - edge of Damascus

Yes

But the thing we loved the most about Damascus, when we used to visit from Basra and when we moved to Damascus was the Damascus International Fair

Hmm

In the summer the best thing you can imagine. I mean it’s like an elegant at that time

The Fair –

The Damascus International Fair pavilion was famous, you walk in and see the French pavilion, the German pavilion, the Dutch pavilion, so you get to know the world

Ohh

The pavilions were annually there

Ohh

Annu - people from Kuwait and Iraq used to come – I mean, it was really, and Syria at that time was an open and democratic country

Ahh

It was the days of Shukri Al-Quwatli and Attasi and and they were democrats

Hmm

And and and the Baathists and nationalists. So it was an economically open country, and its economy aa was a free economy

Hmm

The merchants, I mean, played a major role, so the Damascus International Fair was really an economic ex - rally. For us, we used to go at night to have shawarma

(Alali laughs)

We played aa meaning adul - teenagers, actually, quite-tee but it was an opportunity to see and live, we stayed up late because our families were not worried about us

Yes

We stayed in the in the Fair until ten at night. It was an opportunity to stay up until ten at night, at that time there was no television or radio. I mean I remember one of the things you asked me about was what did we used to do, my father liked listening to the BBC

Ohh

And he liked to listen to Sawt Al Arab. Later, when Sawt Al Arab started and the and the plays the the Egyptian comedy, Egyptian comedy television series that was on the – I remember Fouad Al Mohandes

Ohh

Sa’a Le Qalbek, I believe was the famous TV program that we waited for, its names was Sa’a Le Qalbek, Foad Almohanes and I don’t know –

What was the the program about?

A - it’s about skits - s I mean aa skits, whatever in – in Damascus there was another similar thing, hmm I forgot its name there was a skit aa aaa Syrian skit, I mean comedian skit

Yes comedian

All comedian skit -

And the the time you spent in Beirut in the summer was also?

We used to go yes we used to go

In which area?

We used to go – when we were in Damascus, we used to go to Beirut to basically go the beach

Hmm

We would stay for one week in a hotel and – or go up the mountain

Which area of the mountain was it?

Hamdoun

Hmm

There was only Hamdoun at that time or Beirut to basically go to the the aa in San Simon San Simon, we used to go mostly to swim, I learned how to swim there, I aa -

Since you mentioned aa the topic of the sea aa your hobbies include reading and listening to the radio aa how was your connection with with the surrounding nature, the sea, whether the sea or the farmland or –

See when we moved to Damascus aa I began to love the mountains

Hmm

In the summer, if we didn’t go to Beirut, we went to Bloudan, my father even when we were living in Iraq when he spent the summer in Damascus he used to spend a week or two in Bloudan or in similar mountainous areas which were Damascus’s resorts

Yes

Boubtain, Bloudan, Madaya, we heard that all of them are at war now

Yes

These villages were destroyed in the war, they were summer resorts, I mean I remember me and my sister, my father sleeps at noon in Boubtain mostly in a hotel, a hotel with gardens

Ahh

We rent a couple of rooms and a private garden where we pick fruits, I loved the mountains because my father loved to hike

Yes

Hiking for one or two kilometers

Hiking, yeah

So I developed a love for hiking from from from from Damascus, the sea was what I loved the most when we went to Beirut

Yes

aaa but I aa I mean my father nurtured the love of sports in me

Yes

Whether walking or jogging and volleyball in Basra. In Damascus I started playing basketball although I am short but (Alali laughs) but I loved playing basketball, marathons. Swimming I didn't like it until later, because Damascus –

And were these the activities -

I started going to a swimming pool sometimes with friends during the last year or two

Were these activities part of the school or external activities?

In in aa Damascus some of them were school activities

Hmm

I mean there were basketball teams and such but the facilities were simple, not like what I saw in Shuwaikh Secondary School it was dramatic

Before we move to Shuwaikh University

It was a dramatic difference

Yes aa you mentioned the teachers in in Iraq and also Damascus

In Damascus they were even greater

aa did –

Damascus teachers were greater than Iraq’s teachers

Do you remember any s - story that happened to you with a particular teacher, a favorite teacher or a funny or embarrassing story (Alali laughs) in Iraq let’s say

In Iraq I wasn’t yet aware

You don’t remember

The the story that I remember was the story of the ta - tall students that was taken

Hmm yes

The the secret police, the secret police took him, and I was shocked

As a child yes

In Damascus aa it was a revolutions period and the – so, the students went out on demonstrations almost everyday

Ohh

Every Sunday they participated in organized demonstrations until they reached the cinemas area, the protests disperse so they can go to the cinema at ten thirty in the morning (Shihab-Eldin laughs)

Well

My father didn’t allow me to join -

You didn’t participate in these demonstrations

No, I was. We used to join and go to the cinema afterwards

What were the demon - demonstrations about -

Against the alliance with Baghdad aa what I mostly remember was the alliance with Baghdad aa Balfour Declaration

Ohh

aaa the lib – liberation of Alexandretta in Damascus aa all revolving around Arab national issues and issues that the Syrians were - the Arab union, the were assertion on the union and Abdel Nasser came, I remember

Hmm

In the year 57 or 58, 7 – no, Abdel Nasser came in 58 as I recall

Hmm

But I mean, the union was epic – between Egypt and Syria so all the demonstrations were around coalitions, independence and the Arab union and Arab nationalism issues

In middle school were the – were you personally or the general atmosphere at your home political?

No, my father didn’t like politics. He believed that all politics and politicians are not to be trusted

Hmm

He told me

Hmm

aaa But he was an Arab nationalist

Yes

My father was a nationalist in the sense that he was committed – he studied in Dar Al Moalemen in Baghdad

Hmm

And he was saturated with the spirit of its president at that time Alklda - Rasheed A’ali Al Keelani

Hmm

If you heard of him, Rasheed A’ali Al Keelani I believe was the prime minster in the world war aaa the second, so when Rasheed A’ali Al Keelani taught my father and and and and during the first part of secondary school in the 30s. He graduated in 32 or 33, so there was – he believed in these principles, the issues of Arab nationalism and the union, and he became more persuaded when the issues of losing Palestine happened. He became more interested but still didn’t trust politicians

Hmm

He says those politicians, their words - their words are empty

Yes

They don’t keep their words, so he didn’t encourage me to – get into politics, although I did eventually

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) during - a period in my life I got into politics

And and in middle school aaa let us go back to teachers, did you have a favorite teacher or aa -

Yes I did, biology teachers

Hmm

And the aa physics teacher was excellent, and I remember one of them in the fifth preparation when I first joined

Hmm

Arabic language teacher and religious studies called Refa - Altahtahawi

Aha

Well-known

Yeah

He became a parliament member - his name is Altahtahawi, not a Refaeie but well-know, a famous Syrian, I was so impressed by him, I mean because he was a known figure, and he was teaching at the same time. He was a well-known figure in Syria

Ahh

My father used to talk to me about him at that time

Ahh

And his name remained stuck in my mind. I asked my friends about him, and they told me about him aa I mean studying the the Syrian curriculum was difficult

Hmm

But I learned a lot from him. When we moved to Kuwait, it was so easy

For you

I became number one, I constantly became the top student in class

And and what was your favorite study subject, you mentioned biology and physics

The ones I loved the most were physics and chemistry

Yes

aaa since – since I was young, I remember my love for nature

Ahh

I remember m - my father, the bank employees in Basra went on a trip and took me along with them, the bank employees

(Alali laughs)

I think they were near Safwan or something, Al Zubair, there was nothing close by, and later during sunset they asked me what is this, I said the moon and the sun

(Alali laughs)

I was very young, I was six or seven years, my guess was wrong, so they explained to me why the sun was in the east. So this started my love for understanding nature. I try to understand this and that, why, why the sun, why the moon, why me - the moon looks like the sun because I saw that it looked like the sun. In Syria during chemistry classes, it caught my attention just like magic

Aha

This chemistry teacher in the – in the class brought tubes and he mixed substances together and hydrogen emerged just like that - what was that? Magic, I loved explaing natural phenomena

Hmm

I developed a passion for science that extended from the questions that embarrassed me and I would have liked to answer them to the issue that things is not what you see you can create things that it seems like magic. I started reading, I developed a hobby of buying simple science books, first in Arabic and later in English. Afterwards, when I was in secondary school du - studying in Syria helped me a lot in developing my Arabic language skills and my love for science, not English

Hmm

What I learned in Iraq helped me a lot in Syria

Yes

In language but I didn’t didn’t get better – I believe in my first year in middle school there wasn’t even fre - I believe they enrolled me, and I didn’t like French, the greatest skills, I mean it was not

From a language point of view

From a foreign language point. The Arabic language is one of the best things possible, I mean most of what I learned in Arabic in my life was in middle school not from secondary school

From Damascus

And I will tell you what happened to me in secondary school in Kuwait

Aaa before we move to aa

Afterwards

To secondary school aa in Damascus you mentioned school and mentioned cinema, have you been to the cinema during

Yes yes

Spare time? And

My father didn’t like the cinema very much, but I used to aa go the to the cinema theaters sometimes without my father’s knowledge

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) but not during the demonstrations that I used to - we used to go to cinemas mostly during the holidays, where I am allowed

Hmm

Especially when relatives are visiting – I had cousins and – from Kuwait and my cousins used to visit during the summer and we go out during the holidays and during the big Eid and go to cinema theaters and watch – Zorro films and cowboy films

(Alali laughs) How was the cinema, the cinematic experience in at at that time?

As I said – I mean, the most fascinating things we saw were cowboy films and the Egyptian comedies. I love Egyptian comedy, Ismail Yassin, and I don’t know aa and then we started liking Abdel Halim Hafez films

And you used to go with with family or friends?

My father did not like the cinema

Yes

I used to go either with my relatives or with my friends sometimes, or by myself

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) I escaped and went to see a film that I wanted - I heard about, on my way home from three to six aa

(Alali laughs)

I remember one time my family got upset with me because I went aa to the cinema and they were waiting for me and I was late, I felt bad, and my father was harsh on me and – I mean he scolded me

Yes

Because I did something wrong without telling him, my father was - he was not – violent but he was a disciplinary

Strict

Strict and and and and I mean aa may God have mercy on him, I learned many things from him aa and I thank him for being strict about these matters, otherwise, I could have lost my way during certain periods in my life, no he was an educat - and you know when my father was in Kuwait

Hmm

When I graduated and grew up and worked at the Institute and became aa ceremonies and greeting Sheikhs - especially Sheikh Yaber Al Ali God have mercy on his soul, whenever he sees me he extended his hand like this

Haaah

Why? He used to tell me your father used to hit us with a stick just like this

(Alali laughs)

00: 40: 42

So whenever he saw me he extended his hand, and there were also others - who also extended their hands besides Sheikh Yaber Al Ali? I mean there were few Sheikhs or – (Alali laughs) – that remember my father in a good way, because my father was the only one allowed to use a stick to aaa discipline the students who crossed boundaries

Hmm

Beating was allowed at first and then banned banned in Kuwait in the thirties

Ohhh

I am talking in 36 to 43, 42 when my father’s mission came in, my father told me that when there were disobedient students – and then I mean they opened a second school

Hmm

They brough disobedient students from Ahmadi school in a queue and took them to Mubarkiya so that the Education Principal hit them

Huh

With a stick each one - I got some from my father

(Alali laughs)

I got some and I got - beating at that time was part of the education process

Discipline yes

Education and discipline involved some punishment – if you cross boundaries you need to learn that there is a punishment

Yes

Aa physical punishment was part of the process, nowadays physical punishment does not work anymore but there – must be a punishment

Yes

And this I believe was part of the the , I mean everyone that studied under – everyone in Kuwait who was taught by my father loved him a lot

Yes

Because he was – he was not aaa

Violent

Extreme

Yes yes

Aaa therefore, when he came to Kuwait I mean aa I remember my father telling me that “both Sheikh Sabah and Sheikh Saad want me to work with them”

Ohh

And Sheikh Sabah wants me to work in foreign affairs at the embassy and Sheikh Saad wants me to work in the interior affaires in finance and accounting and and and the” – of course, my relationship, when I graduated, my relationship with Sheikh Yaber and Sheikh Sabah Al Ahmed, because they knew my father

Yes

And they respected and appreciated him, so they gave me opportunities in appreciation of my father

Yes

We can talk about this later

Aaaa

But this I can tell you, that in Damascus I got many aa physical punishments (Shihab-Eldin laughs)

(Alali laughs)

As I told you, I got them from my father, may God rest his soul, but I learned a lot from them

Yes

I got one of them, because of the cinema. I went to the cinema with one of my friends – three to six after school, I was late so when I got home, they were very upset with me and – I got punished, they they even took away not just my allowance, I had an allowance

Yes

To buy aa 7up or C – Cola

(Alali laughs)

Cola, at that time there was no 7up, Cola and cake and whatever from the school canteen, we used to love these things

Aaa Your father in Damascus used to work in – in the bank?

Who?

Your father

My father after leaving Kuwait went to Palestine and worked in the bank

And -

Arab Bank

And your mother –

And moved

She used to work

My mother

In a school in Kuwait and afterwards –

My mother when she came with her brother

Hmm

A schoolteacher needed to be accompanied by mahram

Hmm hmm

My mother when she came with her brother, he was a member of the the mission, I believe she came in 39, 40 and she taught for one year or two, two years, two years, she taught for two years and quit teaching later, when – she had aa my sister

Yes

And later we moved, she quit, and didn’t go back to teaching. She taught for two years I believe in Kuwait at – the first girls’ school

Hmm

I mean there were some of the the, most died, only one is left now that she knew and taught, Khadija Alaqeel

Hmm

Probably the only one that still remembers my mother

Hmm

She taught her

And and

No kh - Khadija aa Khadija, Khadija died, Jehan, I don’t remember

In Damascus, in Iraq and in Damascus was she aa

No, she stayed at home

She devoted herself to - the family

Aha

She devoted herself

She devoted herself to her family and raising us. I mean she was the one who raised us, my father was busy aa working, meaning that my father was part of our upbring, but she was was, I mean, she took care of the family as a whole in all respects, health, nutrition and even education

And th e-

She taught us aa few things she knew, she studied English in a school in Jerusalem that was aaaa she had memories there that she used to tell us on how they struggled to enroll her, because at first her father objected

Ohh

To her studying and then her elder brother, he was the one who brought her to Kuwait, insisted that she goes to school. She told me she used to walk “I used to walk two to three kilometers to get to the English school, the English school”, I believe it was called Freer or something and and and I think she finished secondary school there

Where was the school? In which -

In Jerusalem in - because they used to live in Jerusalem

Yes

Before coming to Kuwait in – when she came to Kuwait, she met my father and after one year they got married and then my elder sister was born and and – she stayed at home, so she didn’t teach for more than two years

And and after you moved to Kuwait and then Iraq and Damascus did you visit Jerusalem or –

Yes, I mean aa we visited Jerusalem many times

Yes

aaa The last time we visited Jerusalem was later on, in 65

Hmm

After I graduated but aa when we were in Damascus we used to visit –

Do you remember –

When we came to Kuwait we used to visit in the summer, I mean – not every summer, in the summer we mostly went to Beirut, Bhamdoun, we stayed in Bhamdoun, aa the year, the years I believe 60 or 61, I remember 60 or 61, I forgot

Hmm

No, now I remember, when I was in middle school

Hmm

When I was in middle school we went to Jerusalem and Ramallah, my younger uncle who taught in Kuwait

Yes

Because his brother brought his younger brother and sister and mother to Kuwait

Yes

So, his younger brother studied in Kuwait in the thirties

Hmm

Then he went back and later he came back to Kuwait – but he died, he was a Kuwaiti, so we visited our younger uncle – Abo Hesham

In Jerusalem

No in Ramallah

Ramallah

Close to Jerusalem

Yes

And then they took us to Hebron city

Hmm

And they made us mansaf at the the farms

Yes

I went back to Damascus only to find out that I had typhoid from Hebron from that lunch – for 3 months – I didn’t go to school, I couldn’t go to school, and whenever I got slightly better, I relapsed

Ohh

And then I infected my sister, so we went through a tough phase aaaa about three or six months because of this lunch invitation

Haa

They were were in farming, I mean they made mansaf aaa the farmers

Yes

They didn’t have hygiene and such. I was drained, I got typhoid in – in in middle school and I got malaria in Basra. And when I got Malaria in Basra, fortunately for me, the medication for this, quinine became available in the Arabian region few years earlier, and they told me it’s in the pharma - told me – it became available in Iraq a year ago, and they gave it to me and I got better

Oh wow

So aa I mean my childhood and studies was punctuated by sever illnesses

Yes

But why am I saying this? You asked about my mother

Yes

She took care of me, I mean she took care of me and my sister, because we were in school and I infected my sister, not with Malaria because Malaria is not infectious but typhoid, I immediately infected her –

And that was in middle school or –

Typhoid in middle school and the, Malaria in primary school and middl - in middle school I lost three or four months of school

And you were home aa during this time

I was home, I left one week to go to school, relapsed and went back home

Ok, do you remember aa

But I managed to pass the exams, thanks to my mother and father, I mean, they both taught me while I was at home

And do you remember your visit to Ramallah and the to Jerusalem

Yes, I mean Ramallah and Jerusalem, I remember my mother used to take us – show us – because she knew Jerusalem, so she showed us Al Aqsa Mosque and took us to the Dome of the Rock and explained how the Dome is suspended – between you and me

Yes

I couldn’t believe it and until today, I don’t believe it but I mean I mean I mean, I don’t believe the story, I don’t believe it’s suspended

Yes

Because when my mother told me it’s suspended, I looked and wondered how? This doesn’t make sense

(Alali laughs)

There must be something I mean, so I basically understood, that the point was it’s suspended

Yes

And not physically suspended

Yes literally

Literally, this was one of those things that always grabbed my attention, when someone says something that doesn’t make sense to me, and I start thinking -

With logic yes

I start thinking, does it fit? Where is the physics of it? And thus, I remember when she took us there and told us about Al Buraq and where the prophet left, so I started thinking if these things can happen or not, I started – studying

Yes, from a scientific point of view

Yes, I developed a strong love of curiosity and explaining things that I was told, if they were true or not, possible or not, or yes and no, meaning it has an explanation, but we haven’t reached it yet

Yes

I pursuit it, and she was – meaning my mother – my mother was religious, my father was a believer, but he wasn’t committed to religious rites

Yes

To be honest

Ohh

But he was a believer and he taught us that faith comes from the mind and not the the –

Yes yes

And when I asked him why aaa you don’t always go to the mosque, he told me I’m not required to always go to the mosque, I’m required to commit to the principles of Islam and they were such and such and honesty, integrity, and work and such, more than the the the rituals

Yes

The the rites

Beautiful

He always focused on that, and I followed his lead. I mean, I became just like him, one of those people who believe that religion is basically the morals and principles aaa in which a person adheres, and thus becomes religious. However, if the person doesn’t adhere to the principles that permeate all religions

Of course

I mean, Islam was the last monotheistic religion – the the the most important issue that he focused was the the – besides monotheism and what is monotheism and such, the most important issue was the principles that – organize society and that - meaning work is worship. As for me, when my father told me this so many times, he told me that that - if you study, that is better for you than fasting, and if you are not able to fast, he told me, this is recorded for you, he told me this

Hmm

He told me studying and succeeding in your studies and and not being able to fast is better than studying and – succussed in your studies than fasting, if you are not able to do it, and if you are able, then do it

Yes

And I believe the the the difference between my mother and father was just a difference in background

Hmm

I mean my father stu- studied and taught and his background is more liberal

Yes

My mother, I mean, comes from a more religious family

Conservative maybe?

One of her uncles, his name is Alnaqshbandy, aa he moved to South Africa and became aaa the head of the Muslim community in South Africa

Hmm

Alnaqashbandy is a religious title

Hmm

I mean a title for a religious scholar – so from my mother’s side the the commitment to rituals is stronger

Hmm

Much more, even my mother - adhered to the rituals and we learned – on the part of my father, the commitment to the principles is more

Ethics

Ethics and principles are the – I mean thank God, I benefited from both of them

Aa and your visits aa to to Jerusalem and Ramallah, did that mean something in your childhood in general, yours or your - your sisters’, was there a focus on the the Palestinian cause or communication with –

During those phases there wasn’t because it all proceeded 65

Yes

The only thing related to the Palestinian cause was that I saw what the Jews did

Yes

They expelled the Palestinians and we - meaning my father left Palestine in 36

Yes

Before that he left in 32 to study in Iraq

Yes

So, his commitment to Palestine was not strong

Was the – communication

No, he was in contact but his commitment – was not strong I mean, he was what you can call an adventurous, he went

Yes

There is a book that was published, I am not sure if I told you about it or not, there is a book that was just sent to me, a woman who wrote her memoirs in Kuwait

Hmm

A woman, she seems Palestinian, I forgot her name

Yes

I have it here. There was an excerpt in her book, that they sent to me, I read it, she says the first time I landed in Kuwait in 54, this lady I believe her name was Alafioni or her husband’s name was Saed Alafioni, he was Sheikh Sabah’s doctor

Oh, ok

They are Kuwaitis

Aha

I believe she wrote – she, I forgot her name I think it might be Taghred Alafioni or something, I can find out now, they sent me the clip where she says when I landed in Kuwait in 1954, that’s her saying “ I remember what my mother said to me”, what did her mother tell her? Her mother – told her that her friend, her mother’s friend

Aha

Said that my son went to work for a place far far away called Kuick

(Alali laughs)

Kuick with a k (Shihab-Eldin laughs) who’s the friend? That would be my grandmother

Ohhh

Talking about my father who left to work in Kuwait a long time ago, in a faraway place called Kuick

Ohh wow

I mean they didn’t even know the name of the the – of course, I only learned this recently from this book

Beautiful, yes

She mentioned this

Yes

So - meaning that my father was one of those those Arab nationalists who left

Wanderer, yeah

Wanderers, adventurers, he left along with Rasheed A’ali Al Kelani when he had the opportunity to come to Kuw - when the Kuwait opportunity came along, he came to Kuwait

Beautiful

And he stayed with this group and established a system and went back, and when the opportunity to work in the Arab Bank came along, he went to the Arab Bank in Basra, when they opened the Basra branch, he went there when the opportunity came along, I mean, he is that type of a person

Yes

He takes the first opportunity to build

Travelling and moving

Yes traveling - and he loved the the the, new places, but of course from politically - I heard him say, and my uncles even more aaa that the Arabs betrayed the Palestinian cause

Yes

And the Jordanian army - I mean I learned – so I developed I developed a commitment towards the cause of the Arab unity

From this position

As an entry point to resolve national issues, including the Palestinian cause

Yes, yes

It includes underdevelopment, colonialism, occupation, and such, so I developed a commitment, and afterwards I went into the the the the the

This arena

The political arena during college

Yes

Not in secondary school

Aaa

During colle - during college I got into it but not in - when I was in secondary school, I mean during secondary school my main commitment was edu - education

Studying

Studying because it - I loved it

Hmm

My father pushed me and encouraged me and enco- and encouraged me and rewarded me telling me if you do this, we’ll go on a vacation, we are going somewhere, I will buy you a chess set

(Alali laughs)

He bought me a ball, in Basra he bought me a ball when I took it to school, I took it to school so we can play footba - they used to play and had a paper ball, I took the football he bought me

An actual ball

An actual football, when they saw it, they went crazy so – I took it and brought it back

Yes

And I became popular

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

You had a treasure

I had a ball, football hah

Yes

So - and and and I mean, I learned many things from him - so – the – in the- up until secondary school I was committed to really, I want to do my best

Excelling in school

Because my father encouraged me, rewarded me, and taught me

And you stayed in Damascus until what year?

57 my father came to Kuwait, and we joined him in la - late 57

And you stayed in Damascus and your father was in Kuwait?

We stayed for few months until the school year ended, and I finished middle school, and then we came to Kuwait

What made your father move from Damascus to Kuwait?

Since he was was in Basra

Hmm

His friends and loved ones in Kuwait wanted him to come to Kuwait

Yes

Aaa but it wasn’t meant to be. When he moved to Damascus and received many visitors, there was an insistence and and he saw that it was better for him to return to Kuwait, because they loved him in Kuwait

Hmm

And and the government wanted him

Ahh

And I believe that he saw that our future was better in Kuw - Kuwait, especially that we have a history there

Yes

History going back to the thirties, so we were not new there – so I believe I believe – I didn’t ses - I mean, what I saw, he said he was going to Kuwait and then I remember that Abo Anwar came to Damascus and my father invited him, my father invited Abo Anwar – may God rest their souls - my father invited him to a restaurant

Haa

And I went with my mother and sisters to this restaurant - one of the finest open – open door

Do you remember the name of the restaurant?

I am trying to remember. It was on the Damascus-Beirut Road before –

Or describe it for me for example?

The restaurant was on a hill

Hmm

Overlooking the Barada River

Ohh

And the road aa you know where Dummar is? Just before Dummar, Dummar and famous Al Hamah, this vill - village, there was the Barada River, it was a nice restaurant

Hmm

Outdoor and we ordered grills – we knew this restaurant well, because during the summer when we got visitors from Kuwait, from anywhere we would go there – play with my cousins and and it’s everybody gather. We went there almost weekly during the summer. We went there because the weather was nice and the river and Ghouta, I believe the restaurant was there, but I forgot its name

Ok

It was a nice restaurant so aa I remember that after we got home, I heard a conversation about my father travelling to Kuwait

Hmm

He went and came back and took - settled his affaires at the bank and and travelled, and then we came to Kuwait

Do you remember as child how this decision was made or if it was –

I was, I was excited

Aha

Because I haven’t seen Kuwait yet, but I was excited, my sister was -teasing me

(Alali laughs)

Telling me she was born in Kuwait (Shihab-Eldin laughs) “I was born in Kuwait”, I mean my elder sister, my two younger sisters, one was born in Basra and one in Damascus

And their names, your elder sister

The elder is Afaf, the one younger than me is Aida, she is a professor at Kuwait University, but I believe she is retired now, poor thing she has Parkinson

Hmm

And the one younger than her is Awatef

Hmm

And the youngest youngest is Atra, all their names started with the letter Ain, my father gave us names that start with the letter Ain

Oh yes (Alali laughs)

Called after after the letter Ain, A

And and do you remember how the decision was made? Did you have aa

The - the decision was made by my father

Any opinion on the issue?

No, no, just my father, I mean you can say everyone was excited

Yes

Excited with this relationship, while in Basra or Damascus, we always heard – heard about my father’s past in Kuwait

Ahh

And teaching and schools and what he did and – so there was excitement and strong enthusiasm

Yes

To go back to Kuwait

Beautiful

As a family I mean

Beautiful

So -

And your mother as well, your mother?

Yes, my mother as well the the the the the - I mean my mother didn’t like Basra

Hmm

She also agreed when the opportunity came to move to Damascus, because it was closer to her heart than –

Yes

Jerusalem and such - Damascus was closer than Basra, but of course, my mother loved Kuwait, from one side, because her first daughter was born in Kuwait

Hmm

Was born in a hospital

And she met my father in Kuwait as well

She met my father and taught, and it became - I mean part of her initial life

Yes

Was formed in Kuwait

Yes

You know, initial formation

Yes

For the as a family, I mean, as a family in Kuwait Kuw - Kuwait was the place where this family was formed

Yes

Our family

Beautiful

Aa it is true that my father moved but Kuwait remained our home, so - you can say everyone was an anxious to go back

(Alali laughs)

So, when the opportunity came – the opportunity came when Abo Anwar visited, what they told me is that Abo Anwar said I am not leaving, I have instructions from Sheikh Sabah not to leave Damascus without you

(Alali laughs)

And it seems he got him on an airplane and brought him to Dam - brought him to Kuwait

His name was Abo Anwar –

They made arrangements – they made arrangements and then he came back and settled his affaires and traveled again aa even Abo Anwar always reminded me, may God have mercy on him, I mean, I always tell Abo Anwar this story, and he remembers –

Sorry his name, name -

Abdulrahman Alateeqi

Abdulrahman Alateeqi, yes

The late Abdulrahman, he died one or two years ago

Yes yes

And Abdulrahman Alateeqi worked with Sheikh Sabah

Yes

And he wanted my father, Sheikh Sabah and Abdulrahman wanted to appoint my father at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Sheikh Saad told them no, I would like him to work with me. So – eventually he worked here instead of there

There was a dispute over your father

Yes yes, I mean I believe that at that time, they were looking for – qualified individuals that have aaa and they knew

As consultants

As – no, they wanted my father to be an ambassador, and Sheikh Saad appointed him the director of an undersecretary – eventually he became the Undersecretary for Financial Affairs because he was known for his honesty and integrity

Yes

And knowledge and trustworthy so - aa everyone at the Ministry of Interior, the police, when they saw my father any where

Ah yes

Greeted him

Saluted him

Saluted him because he was in charge of paying their salaries and –

(Alali laughs)

Yes

Well

They called him Abo Adnan, my father loved sports so much so that when he retired – he retired, he retired when he was over seventy

Mashallah

When he retired, every day at the Ministry of Interior before work, before the employees came in, they had a yard outside, a parking in Shamiya, I believe actually, the the, it used to be in Naif Palace

Yes

Naif Palace was used by the Ministry of Interior and then they moved to Shamiya

Hmm

The the finance sector, I mean, the administration and finance sector had to - it was mandatory that employees, every day before starting work, play basketball and volleyball for half an hour, and he joined them until he was 70 years old

Ohh

They all remember him well because of this, all the employees who have worked with him

And you moved from –

And he was – in front of our house in Rumaithiya, there is a 200 meter yard, he used to take me to see who’s playing football and we joined them (Shihab-Eldin laughs)

(Alali laughs)

He was 70 – 60 and I was 25, 20

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) the boys on the street

And you moved from Damascus to to Kuwait

Yes

Aa you took the airplane from –

We took an airplane from Damascus

Yes

There were airplanes at that time, we landed in the airport of course

Yes

The one in Dahiya or –

Nuzha

The airport that was in Nuzha

Yes, and do remember the first thing you noticed when you arrived in Kuwait?

The heat

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

You arrived in the summer

In the summer, we arrived in August or July, July or August, it was hot, and we went to the apartment they set up for us

July of 19..

57 or –

57, and and you remember that it was - it was hot

Hot and humid, I was annoyed from the heat - but the moment we walk into the apartment there were those strong Antar air conditioners, they were installed on windows, at that time there was no –

Condation, condation

The the window condation, there were no central

Yes

Centrals were not yet available – and they made a loud noise

(Alali laughs)

But the moment you sit next to it, you immediately cool off with its cold breeze, I loved it, especially after lunch, I really enjoyed it

So, you didn’t have to – you and your sister – (Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) no no, we loved this air conditioner and – air conditioning was the first thing that caught my eye when we arrived in Kuwait, because we did not know it

Yes

We we didn’t see it

And where was the apartment you lived in?

In Murqab, in houses assigned, at first, by the Ministry of Interior

Can you describe this building for me?

Huh

The building, can you describe it for me?

I believe the building was part of – do you know where where Siddeeq is? There used to be a Ministry of Interior complex and they gave gave my father an apartment – no, yes they gave my father an apartment there and then we – moved to Nuqra

Hmm

And then we took the house in Rumaithiya, built it I mean. At first, it was a transitional stage until my father managed his affairs

Nuqra in the complex –

Jaber Al Ali Complex- there used to be a complex aa at first in Murqab and then Jaber Al Ali Complex in – now it’s – I mean, back then, it was the fanciest thing they can offer

Yes

For consultants and for this -

And you were aa you finished middle school and and –

No, when I came to Kuwait, I was in secondary school

Secondary school, so you finished middle school

I did, and it happens that I finished primary school in Basra

And – the –

Completed four years of middle school in Damascus and completed secondary school in Kuwait

And you started your first year in secondary school

Yes

Aa and at that tim - at that time you were living in –

Murqab and then Nuqra

In Nuqra and the the secondary school was Shuwaikh Secondary School

Shuwaikh Secondary School, it was the only one

And and

For boys and – my sister was in Murqab, the girl’s secondary school in Murqab, it was the only secondary school and it was in Murqab she used to – walk walk I mean

And you attended Shuwaikh

Yes, a bus came in, came in to take us from Murqab, it had two or three stops and then we went to Shuwaikh, the greatest stage in my educational life, besides Berkeley

Hmm

Was my experience at Shuwaikh, and not just the education, but as a life

Yes

Because we used to take the bus, in the morning at seven or something, by seven thirty we were in school, classes start at eight. This school was a campus

Hmm

New, spacious, two-story buildings

And the building – just to clarify for the recording - the building is located in Shuwaikh, which is now Kuwait University. That was before, no, unfortunately they demolished it - same location

Hmm

They demolished most of the buildings

Yes

I don’t - I think there is only one building left, that they preserved. It was a main building and then there was the cafeteria was separate, the mosque was separate, the library was separate, professors' housing, professors' housing, students' housing, and stadiums. A huge campus, sam - the same huge site, where the university is, there was a secondary school

Beautiful

I mean, imagine, how massive, it was a secondary school for us, what is this this this this education planning. See, I learned later on when I went to UNESCO that, I learned that there are three /// factors -

Hmm

Key factors to achieve aa quality in education

Yes

Curriculum

Hmm

The environment and the family. You see, all the studies that I learned later on, whenever they do a study, they look for what are the factors that lead to higher quality of education

Yes

They find that the three key factors are curriculum

Yes

Curriculum means the curriculum and the – environment which is the school

Hmm

The school and the teachers, and the school environment, meaning the facilities

Yes

And the family, and thank God I had all three factors in varying degrees, school varied since primary school, the facilities were not very good

Yes

But the teachers were excellent, and the curriculum was excellent. In Damascus, the school was goo - excellent teachers, but when I came to Shuwaikh Secondary School it was by far

All the factors

All the factors and an order of magnitude

Yeah

The curriculum was not much diff - I mean - not much different in terms of quality than - But it was the best curricula because – who were the teachers at Shuwaikh Secondary School?

Yes

They brought in - They selected the senior Arab teachers

Hmm hmm

Meaning that they brought in the Arabic language senior teacher in Cairo, not any teacher, senior teacher senior teacher, and they selected the best of the senior teachers, the best chemistry teacher, the best Arabic language senior teachers, from Damascus, they choose them from Palestine and from Iraq, so the teachers were - I remember for example

Yes

In math I had three or four teachers, one of them was Kuwaiti, only one, he was excellent, his name was Abdelaziz I forgot his last name, we used to call him the Chinese

(Alali laughs)

He was famous. Why did we nickname him the Chinese? - because his eyes – I think he was related to aaa Alabdulrazak or something who who – who have lineage from Malaysia and

Oh

Do you know Alabdulrazak family, their eyes are a bit, it looks like Chinese

Hmm

So Abdelaziz Hussein, I forgot his name, Abdelaziz Hussein, or no, not Abdelaziz Hussein, Abdelaziz Mohammad but we used to call him the Chinese

His nickname

The Chinese, his nickname was the Chinese aa he was excellent. He was probably the only – back then we had Jaweesh and Alnajar and there was another one, Jaweesh and Alnajar yes, and in – in English we had Najem, Mahmoud Najem I believe aaa in mathematics and chemistry- in Arabic language there was, in chemistry we had Albuhairi, physics Fathi Beshir , in chemistry we had an excellent teacher, in biology, and then he got his PhD and worked at Kuwait University as a professor, I recognized him. Those were the three, I mean, three or four teachers they really helped me a lot, helped me, I mean - I was I was already a top student

Yeah

But helped me to fulfill my potential

Yes

They were giving me their time, why would they give me their time? That what I am talking about, the school environment

Yes

In Shuwaikh Secondary School it was like tutoring because the professors were living on campus

Yeah

And all students on-campus and off-campus we were assigned a dorm. I was assigned to dorm number nine, although I – didn’t sleep. The ones who lived on campus were from Fintas or came from remote areas

Yes

Or scholarship students, Algerians or Yemenis or else, they lived on campus, or Kuwaitis who lived in remote areas lived there. But for us – all the students, we were assigned. So, after finishing classes, we had lunch at the cafeteria, and then rested at the dorms. There was a responsible professor for the dorm. And if we needed help with chemistry we went to the chemistry teacher, if we needed math - I used to finish all my homework in the library, there was a separate library, and the professors were there in case we had questions

This was free of charge or-

Free, they live there and had residences there, and part of their job was to offer tutoring after school. Also, each one of them stayed in in in in one of the dorms, and you visit them if you needed them or and – and then we went to the library to finish our homework, and we later played sports, football, basketball, squash, tennis, whatever you want. At 7pm I took the last bus

(Alali laughs)

I went home on the last bus, I did not take – I did not want to take the first one, some people left early, I always took the last one - we all went to school by bus

Yes, aaa

No parent driving us to school or nothing

Do you remember your first day in school? You took the bus as well on your first day?

Yes yes, I was a bit nervous and and and foreign, my dialect was still not Kuwaiti

Yes

My dialect aaa was Shami and Palestinian and a bit Iraqi, so I was nervous but when I entered the class and saw the academic atmosphere and the teachers loved me, and the student noticed that I am good and – not only good in school I mean

Social

Social and and and - it became very easy, it took me few months to become friends with everybody, A- Ibraheem and others, all of them – all of us became – and also what made me feel like this is my country, was the fact that my father used to be here

Yes

In Kuwait, previously

A founder

He was the – founded the education system and everyone was talking about him in – I mean, when they knew who I was it felt like we never left Kuwait, although the I first came to Kuwait, I was in secondary school

Yes

But when they knew who I was, who my father is, it felt I was always in Kuwait and that is that is how I was treated by other boys

Yes

My friends I mean, and the the family as well, but this was. Of course, my father was given a nationality immediately and aa I left on a scholarship

In in, I mean in

When the nationality law was issued in 61, my father was one of the first to be granted the Kuwaiti nationality

And and you mentioned that the curricula when your father was the founder were curricula from Iraq aa -

Yes, of course the curricula changed after a long time

In – in secondary school

The curricula became mostly Egyptian

Yes

Most - they were Kuwaiti curricula but based on the Egyptian ones. But the Egyptian curricula were high caliber, because at that time

Yes

You are talking about the fifties; the Egyptian curricula were strong

Yes

And the Egyptian teachers that came to Kuwait - and not just the Egyptians, the Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis and and Palestinians they were all top

Yes

I mean top, I mentioned some of their names aa Fathi Beshir chemistry, the only ones that I – did not have a good relationship with were the ones teaching Arabic, I did not get along with them

Where were they from?

From Egypt aaa

You couldn't get along with them

And they taught Arabic language and religious studies

Ah yes

Altogether, I wasn’t comfortable, first because I came from Damascus, so my Arabic language was much stronger

(Alali laughs) yes, stronger than –

Yes fr, the curriculum was very easy for me

Yes

They were teaching grammar that I knew and understood and – so I got bored

You had a strong foundation

And the teachers were not that good and and – some of them didn’t know how to teach – therefor I believe what was more important than the teacher – I remember in the las - last year of secondary school we had a ritual

Hmm

That we do not have to aaa attend during the – last year, because the emphasizes was on the end of year exam – finals

Yes

The important thing was the exam at the end of the year, at that time there were no grades and such. Well, there was a group of rioters, that included me

(Alali laughs)

In Arabic language (Shihab-Eldin laughs), there was an Arabic language teacher I forgot his name, we saw each other, and he told us to leave the class

(Alali laughs)

We go outside, have fun, go to – sometimes one - one of them has a car or something, we drive to Sulaibekhat where there was a canteen

Ohh

We buy chocolate and cacao, and then go to the beach, the weather was nice so we went swimming

Well, sorry to interrupt but this is a very rich phase and aa - I’m just trying to organize my thoughts aaa you mentioned that your personality in secondary school had a bit of a rebellion or rioting aaa

Not much, I was a rebel on issues that I did not believe were right. For example, I did not like how the Arabic language teacher was teaching us and and and – and we were a group of friends, and I was a part of this group

Yes (Alali laughs)

So we were rebellious a bit but with manners, I wasn’t wasn’t impolite, no I was rebellious, I mean –

Maybe it was boredom

Yes

More than

More like boredom and being uncomfortable in the in the – in math – I was perfect, I was one of the perfect students, so it was mostly boredom and lack of interest in the subject and method of teaching of the – I probably do not blame the teacher as much as the fact that curriculum was below my level

Yes

I was not interested, so I was looking for any opportunity to leave, so the teac - the professor would tell me to leave, and I was relieved

And and

But he didn’t didn’t didn’t punish me

Yes

And that is indicated by the fact that the Arabic language professor, after I graduated and went to college and visited the secondary school, I missed it you know – so when I came back in the sum – winter - in the summer vacation – I visited the, and he saw me

(Alali laughs)

He called me and I greeted him, and he took me to the classroom and told the students - do you see this student, he graduated top of his class last year. He was my best student

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

So, I was a bit (Shihab-Eldin laughs) I felt he was over doing it

Privilege in terms of

Aaa but we started having students come back as Kuwaiti teachers

Yes

Where did the Kuwaiti graduates go? When they graduated, they were placed here and there, including Shuwaikh Secondary School.

Yes

So, we had a principal who taught for one year - English language and then became a principle, Suliman Almutawa, may God have mercy on him, he passed away a short while ago, our relationship, it was like this

Aha

He was – four or five years older than us

Ahh

Or – six years, so not much

Close

Very close, we were 17 and he was 24

Yes

And and – he taught for one year and became principle, we had a strong relationship and with the elite; Muhammad Abul-Hassan and Hassan Al-Ebraheem, we were all – Al Kazemi Dr. Alkazemi, we were all – and our relationship – as I told you they were tutors, they were tutor

Yes

Like the system in Cambridge and Oxford

Yes

But on a secondary school level so - aaa - I forgot what I was talking about, oh it was really it was great that they were in Kuwait, there was no university at that time

Yes

But it had a system to host the best Arabic lecturers in Kuwait

Like who?

For me, I remember Salwa Nassar a physicist at AUB, she came and talked about the the astrophysics, and I loved physics, so I always listened to her

Ohh

I believe they brought in aaaa professors lecturing on on politics

Hmm

In the aaa - I forgot their names –

But at that time, you mentioned you were not interested in politics aaa

At that time, I had a political orientation, but not in an organized way or committed to anything - but I had political orientations

Yes

Political orientation toward the principles of the Arab nationalism cause

Yes

And the Arab unity, at that time the Arab union already took place between Egypt and Syria, and we were excited and and the coup that happened in in – Iraq aaa Abd al-Karim Qasim and and and and – in 58 – so all these issues were pushing us towards being interested in political matters

Well –

It was the the, in secondary school, who were they? You are either pro socialist, communist, nationalist

Yes

Or capitalist and the the Islamic political parties did not exist, there were – one party on the scene, not the Muslim Brotherhood, it was called the Liberation Party

Ha

Maybe there were Muslim Brotherhood members, but we did not know about them. We knew that so-and-so and so-and-so were politically organized with Liberation Party, they were not Kuwaitis

Yes

They were foreigners, most of the Kuwaitis I knew were either Baathists or Arab nationalists or Baathists I mean in this this this – at the university - the secondary school we had a mosque

Hmm

A mosque mosque not – so – the students who adhered to Islamic rituals were very few

Yes

We knew because I stayed until seven

Yes

Aaa those who were more religiously committed were those who came from remote areas

Yes

From Fintas or the students from Yemen

Ahh

The rest of the students from urban areas were not committed to Islamic rituals. I am not saying that they were not religious

Yes

Just not committed to the rituals

But in terms of curricula, for example, were there any aaa

Religious studies, religious studies class, there were only two classes a week

A week

Two hours a week, one hour on Monday and on Thursday and I – I am not religious

Hmm

But on the third and fourth year I got 20 out of 20 and 20 out of 20 in religious studies, and I remember this (Shihab-Eldin laughs) why? Because I knew

Yes

What was the - I mean, what was required of me in the exam. I am required to know the pillars of Islam and I am required to know aa aa the principles and and the - I am required to know the verses that urges such and such. So, it was easy for me to answer the questions

Yes, but in the other classes, for example, in the Arabic language, or in other classes, was religion or Islam covered? For example, what did you read in Arabic, in the Arabic language class?

We read for pre-Islamic poets, Taha Hussein books aaa there wasn’t aa The curriculum was language-focused, not a curriculum -

Separate from the –

Separate, in chemistry there was not – social sciences, we studied a bit of social sciences, and not much, in the fourth year, I think. There was nothing in history and geography classes, we studied history of all all – all cultures

Yes

Including the Islamic culture and the history of - ancient cultures, in geography - in geography, the countries –

Yes

So, the religious angle was not infused in the curricula

In all subjects

As it is now

Yes

I believe – this is a personal belief, I believe that the the the the the the let us say that the balance increased at the expense of something

Yes

It might have created a religious generation, committed to religion, and this is a good thing if it is a commitment to the principles, but at the same time it came at the expense of other subjects of knowledge

Yes

At the expense of open-mindedness, because civilizations now, as you know - I , possibly because of my good fortune, good fortune, and I have my father, may God have mercy on him, to thank, I studied in Basra and Bagh - in Damascus and in Kuwait and then in Cairo and then at Berkeley, I mean, I got to know the world and this I owe not only to my father but to Kuwait because

Yes

I then left, came to Kuwait, and then left Kuwait on a scholarship - at first, I went to /// London but thing didn’t go well, I had a problem, and then I went to Egypt, and then I left to go to Berkeley, I encountered various approaches and ideas

Yes

And I knew at the end it is here, it is. You are the one who creates the future, not the past that creates the future

Indeed

You rely on the past, but you have to use your brain to build the future

Yes

This is what I saw at Berkeley and in - and I was lucky that I had exceptional teachers, in primary school, middle school, and secondary school

Aaa

This is what I always mention to everyone I – I am lucky

Yes

And those who were with me were lucky, not just me

And and

All of our generation, the fifties, sixties, up to seventies generation. I believe the generation that came after - aaa did not receive the same quality of education, whether in terms of curricula or in terms of teachers. Schools were excellent as an environment

Yes

It has not changed on the contrary, it has become better, but in terms if curricula

Teachers

As teachers no

Aaa

I think there was a clear deterioration, and we blame ourselves because no one imposed on us, and I am one of those people who always talks about this at the university boards, and when I talk to ministers of education, and in all the institutions that I worked in, we do not lack anything, we can select the best teachers, why don’t we bring in the best teachers? Kuwaitis, education - I mentioned the subject of education, Kuwait's interest in education

Yes

The merchants came to Sheikh Ahmad Al Yaber and offered to pay more taxes

Hmm

To establish Majlis Al Maref to enhance education

Beautiful

And build schools for boys and girls and bring in the best teachers from abroad

Hmm

And they did and built. In the seventies they brought in the best teachers and built the best schools, the girls’ secondary school in Khaldiya became a university campus, see this building

Yes

This was built as a girl’s secondary school

Yes

Just like – Shuwaikh Secondary School this was Khaldiya Secondary School for girls

Yeah

That one became a university campus and this one became a university campus

And this became a university campus. Before we move on – move on, so can we say that the the curriculum aa religious or Islamic curriculum was not impeded in all subjects

It was not infused in all classes and not – by weight, relative weight and its focus

Good –

I mean, we did not learn to memorize

Hmm

We only memorized few things, possibly the the the the only class where I resorted to memorizing in order to get a high grade is religious studies

Hmm

I memorized few verses and memorized few aaa -

Hadith

Hadith, so that – I get a perfect grade. And indeed, I did, but other than that, I did – not resort to memorizing

Aa Well, in terms of aa the the arts or literature, aa were there music curricula –

Hmm

Or a focus for example on –

Yes yes

Reading literature, novels, plays?

Especially in Shuwaikh Secondary School

Hmm

More than in middle school and more than primary school

Yes

I mean, I the the – we had student associations

Hmm

Knowledge about poetry and literature. I think that ambassador Muhammad Abul-Hassan, was our leader

(Alali laughs)

And he had a newspaper, a wall newspaper, which he was responsible for every week

Wall newspaper

Newspaper – It was the student wall newspapers

Hmm

They write it in it - a newspaper he writes by hand, pinned, it has tabs on the latest Arab political news, and so on

In secondary school

In secondary school, Muhammad Abul-Hassan was in charge of it – the ambassador, and remind him

(Alali laughs)

A wall newspaper, he was in charge of it at least in the fourth year of secondary school and maybe in the thir - actually in second year

(Alali laughs)

I mean I, I left, I was in second year, Muhammad Abul-Hassan and I sat on the same – the – we call it the journey which was the the bench

Ahh

Two, two, so it was Muhammad Abul-Hassan – because we were both short

This was in the classroom

Yes, in the classroom where we sat

One desk for two persons

Yes

For two students

Two students, there were many, each one - two students sat on each desk

Ahh

Of course, we went to the laboratory and such, but we have one class

Yes

Most of our classes were in the same room. The teacher comes to us, I mean, we don't go to the teacher

Aha

This was the system in - the Fire Association, the Esperanto Association. What is Esperanto? The global language that they tried to spread in the fifties. The Association of the the Universe aa physicists, this was the one I used to go to

Ohh

So, anything you wanted had an association and a mentor from the professors

In the in the - in secondary school

In secondary school, in secondary school, had a mentor, a mentor meaning /// advisor

Responsible for it

An advisor from the professors, he was the one who - English language association, the literature aaa association, fine painting association, sports, sports associations I played football and basketball and - I was short but I did did better in basketball, I even got the best player title that I liked, the best in this tournament

Ohh

I was the shortest one and did not know how to shoot but they voted me because I was moving around

And this was part of the – the school activities?

As - I told you, we did not get home until seven o'clock, so when I went home at that time, there was no television, it arrived at the end of the year I believe. We used to watch Aramco or something when it was humid. We got home at seven, seven thirty, what to do? I had dinner with my father and mother and sisters, my father listened to the radio, I listened with him to the radio, news, and so on. I rarely needed to do homework. I used to finish everything.

Hmm

I listened to news, listen to comedies, at nine thirty, ten we went to our rooms, maybe I had a bit of reading to do, I had to read a little, but we did everything in school

Yes yes

We didn’t need to do anything outside of school

And for example – in terms of sports, did you have competitions, for example, with other schools?

Yes yes, I told you there was a tournament

Hmm

For the basketball triathlon, and this was one of the tournaments I participated in that I was voted by unanimously that I was the best player

huh

Although I didn’t score much but because I was moving and had reflexes

Fast moving

Fast moving and had reflexes, and this had stayed with me // my love for basketball, ever since

Yes

When I worked in Cairo at UNESCO, we lived in Maadi

Huh

We lived right above the American School for male and female students, for primary to secondary, and my children studied there. In the afternoon when I came back from the office, they had an auditorium, for sports, basketball, so I went there - Who was there to play? The marine who guarded the American embassy

Ohh

Young men between the ages of 25 and 30 playing basketball joined by few Egyptians and me

(Alali laughs)

When they saw me at first, who is this short guy who does not know how to shoot? And then they started – fighting over me, why? Because I was moving fast and was an interceptor and made passes, so they started to like me (Shihab-Eldin laughs)

They were surprised (Alali laughs)

In secondary school I put all of this, I mean it was a nice

Yes

I learned squash and tennis in secondary school, because they had – they brought in Pakistani coaches

And the courts were there

Yes - the coaches, one was specialized in squash, and one was specialized in tennis, who ever wanted to learn can train with him, for free, we were students wearing shorts, they gave us shorts and gave us the the the the equipment for - all for free

Ahh

I mean they handed them out to us

Yes

Sports clothing, shoes, the - not just that, even the the school clothing they gave us

The uniform

The uniform, they gave us pants, a shirt, two pants and a shirt, few shirts and few jackets every

Aaa ok, this is from the school side, but for example, in the fifties, what were the activities or the

No, I was – I mean – by the late fifties

Yes

I studied for four years in the late fifties

Aa during this period in Kuwait aa outside the school, what places did you go to, for example –

Cinema

Hmm

We used to go to Ferdous Cinema, Hamra Cinema. I do not know if they still exist or not. Ferdous Cinema and Hamra Cinema, which were – I believe they existed, they replaced them with a mall now, it has the letter S - S - aa do you know where Almulla car dealership is? There used to be a roundabout there, there was Ferdous Cinema, and the the Hamra Cinema

Hamra

And there was a summer cinema, it was in -

Hawalli?

In Hawalli, the summer one, and then there was this huge cinema, the one in the large building, where Muhallab is now

Hmm

Mall

Aa

The one where Umm Kulthum sang in the the the the in Hawalli, a huge cinema before this summer cinema

Yes

There was a cinema, I forgot its name

Do you remember for example – the restaurants or the places you liked to go to

Restaurants, at that time there were none, the only restaurants I liked going to were in Ahmadi, at the KOC

Hmm

Habara Restaurant

Hmm

We went with our families. If they know someone there, we were visiting someone in Ahmadi

Yes

They took us to Habara restaurant, we enjoyed it because it served Indian food and –

Hmm

But most of the delicious food back then was homemade

Or or for example places like clubs or beaches –

We used to go to Ghazal Club

Hmm hmm

But I believe – it was private

Yes

And we got in through people we knew, Shuhaiber and Almulla – they of course were members of Almulla family, the family - Almulla owned the Ghazal Club

Aa can you describe the Clu - Club?

The Club - Nabeela now has a house there near the Club

Hmm

Aaa I did not go there often, I went

Yes

Twice or three times as a guest

Yes

What we used to do during the summer if we did not travel or before travelling and had nothing to do because our – our live was entirely based on school

Yes

Wake up at seven, on the weekend we were allowed to go to the cinema

Hmm

We went to the cinema, we had nothing else to do, it was either the cinema or home or I had a Pakistani friend, and I had a car, he used to drive the car and we went to Ahmadi sometimes on the weekend. There were no streets or highways or anything, there was a narrow road we took the – where – Maghreb Road is now, there used to be a road but it was not Maghreb Road or anything

Hmm

Just – a narrow road that takes us to Ahmadi

What did you do in Ahmadi?

We went aaa - I believe there was a canteen

Hmm

We grabbed a Pepsi, I mean, we were yo - still young

Yes

We stare at nice young ladies

(Alali laughs)

You know because it’s

You walked around

Walked around, looked around aa I was - I told you during Arabic class, we used to escape and go to – a canteen in Sulaibikhat

Yes

aaaa and and

Well from –

I mean, I I was mostly committed to school

Aa

Ahh, I remembered

Hmm

We were in Abdullah Al Jaber palace and the former American Embassy building which was on the seaside in Bnaid Al Qar

Yes

There was an opening, we went early in the summer – school ended, and we had nothing to do so we would go and swim there

Ahh

With the guys. Or three or four Kuwaiti families would go out on a picnic. I also went with my cousins early in the morning at five, it was hot, we went to Bidaa

Hmm

There were sand dunes, there was nothing in Bidaa, just sand dunes and the sea

Yes

We went aa at four thirty or five, it was still dark, around sunrise – they put - we brought food with us and we swam and played

What did you eat?

Huh?

What was your favorite dishes at that time?

Breakfast – they brought food from home, fatayer and and and you know fatayer, they mostly brought fatayer and and and this baqsam

Yes

Things of this sort

Aa ok you mentioned – that when you were in Damascus – you were connected to nature, the the mountains, the gardens, in Kuwait what was it?

The sea

Hmm

As I told you, we loved going to the sea because – ha, during winter our family used to take us to the zoo in Salwa

Hmm

I don't know if you have heard of it or not, there was a zoo during the winter we used to go there, we went there maybe three four times during the season. A type of – I have many photos from our childhood, we went with my father and mother and sisters and other families, walk around there – l – we did this during secondary school up until I graduated. I remember an incident (Shihab-Eldin laughs) I learned aa how to drive in in – you know where Doha is?

Aha

My father had a driver, a driver from work

Hmm

And aa for the family and we had a Chevrolet 57 I thought or 50 – 50 no no 59, so I learned how to drive during my third year in secondary school with this driver, a Syrian, his name was Ghazi

Hmm

(He laughs) so he used to teach me there - where we used to picnic, and they brought food and and and and sometimes they brought embers and something to make coffee and tea

Hmm

And then him and I used to drive in the car – in the desert, desert, and he showed me how to turn right and left, it was a manual stick, there was no automatic

(Alali laughs) manual stick

Manual stick, and on one of those days, suddenly I jumped over one of those the the the what do you call it, the-

Sand dunes

Yes, the the shrubs

Ah

They were on the, they have a name. So the car was on top of, and the the …. (he laughs) I did not have a license yet

Yes (Alali laughs)

So – my father was upset but it went well, and I got a driver’s license afterwards

Hmm

Driver license

In secondary school

During the last year, I started driving my father’s car

What was his car? Chevrolet?

59 Chevy Chevy, I believe or 58 – 58 Chevy, it was beautiful, blue and white, fancy

(Alali laughs)

Aa I started driving it in – during that year, my last year in secondary school, we went once to the zoo in Salwa, had fun and came back, I was driving

Hmm

With my father, mother, and sisters

Hmm

I believe it wasn’t all of them – I believe the – no, we were a caravan, three or four cars

Hmm

I do not know who was with me from my sisters, not all of them, but my father, I think, was sitting on my right. We faced a strong yellow sandstorm on our way back

Hmm

One of those – yellow dust, orange

Hmm

And before we reached Messila Roundabout, there used to be a roundabout there – you know where Jumeirah is now? It was a huge roundabout

Hmm

Seven streets branched out of it - or six, so before we got there, we faced the sandstorm, all cars stopped. When – the weather cleared up I was the first one

Hmm

They were all behind me, cars I mean, we waited for half an hour, 40 minutes just waiting. This was one of those sandstorms that you do not see anything

Yes

Later aaa - aaa I started driving. On our way back to Kuwait I got to the roundabout after the sandstorm – I started driving and so on, looking for the road, and when I recognized it, I started driving. About three or four minutes later everyone behind me was honking, apparently, I was driving back - to Ahmadi

Ohh

Because I couldn’t see, so I was turning around until I found the street, only to find out I made a u-turn and they all followed me

Ohhh

That was funny to me

(Alali laughs)

The other thing we used to do, my cousins had a house in – Om Sidaa area – Do you know Om Sidaa? Now it’s gone, it’s it’s, there is only one house remaining there, they were all government housing, and then they got appropriated and it became – do you know where the ministries complex is?

Hmm

Ministries complex in the City

Yes

The City

Yeah

Qibla is there, it is still empty, the area used to be called Om Sidaa

Om Sidaa

Yes

Hmm

There used to be houses there and my cousins had a house there. During the summer, we used to go and play there, fighting and and and listening to music, Indian and and and the the girls were doing an Indian dance, and other things, just childish things, and it was fun to – We listened to songs by Abdel Halim Hafez and Umm Kulthum, mostly Abdel Halim Hafez, we listened – we loved Abdel Halim

Aaa well, during this period, did you have a contact, for example, with the Palestinian community in Kuwait or was there -?

Yes, my father was visited by his Palestinian friends, they visited him, and also our family, many of my cousins (from my father’s side) were in Kuwait all my uncles (from my mother’s side) came to Kuwait and became Kuwaitis and so on, but there were Palestinian families that came –

Hmm

To Kuwait in the fifties, most of them became Kuwaitis, and they – visited each other

Like who? aa - the families?

Aaa Qutaina, aa Shuhaiber aa - some of them did not become Kuwaitis, Alsharqawi aa aa Almaghraby, the people who were with my father I forgot their names – yes, what’s their name, Hunaidi

Hmm

Aaa

And they visited you – in your house in Rumathiya?

No – at first they visited – at first the visits were – mostly in Nuqra

Hmm

The complex in Hawalli, and when we moved – at that time when we moved to Rumathiya I was already in college

Hmm

So – I didn’t live much in Rumathiya with my father, maybe when I came back – after finishing my bachelor

Hmm

I lived with them for few months and then went back to America to get my PhD aa I told you the story

Yes

I came back to Kuwait after that and stayed with them in Rumathiya for three months, and then I went back to America for the second time to study and stayed for four or five years, when I got back, I got married after one year and got an apartment in Pearl Marzouq

Ahh

Me and my wife stayed in Pearl Marzouq, and then I moved to Aardiya, I got a house for // middle income families in Aardiya

Aa oh, okay, in Nuqra, who were your neighbors -

I really do not remember, I remember one – they were our neighbors, and they were non non Kuwaitis

Hmm

They were exp - all non-Kuwaitis aa that was a temporary arrangement until we got the land –

Yes

And built it

Aa you mentioned that in school there was - there was a sort of rebelling, how was your relationship with your family, I mean your father and mother - as a teenager in secondary school let’s say?

My father at that time aaa realized that I am teenager

Hmm

But he used to tell me to study, but he allowed me the space to be with the friends I knew

Hmm

Aa whether with relatives – he allowed me to go out with them on weekends, during the week, there was not enough time, because I came back at seven

Yes

So, the freedom to move was during the weekend and the weekend was a Friday

Yes

No Thur - not Thursday nor Friday and Saturday

One day

It was one day, the weekend, one day, Friday, Thursday was school, Saturday was school

Hmm

You had one day for the weekend, Thursday afternoon and Friday

Yeah

Thursday afternoon we went to the cinema – afternoon or eve- Friday we went – Fridays were mostly for picnics, either with family and families we go – we got to Fintas, Funaitees had farms where we stayed, my father liked to play backgammon, when his friends came by

And how was it aa for your sisters, did they have aa the freedom as well or your sister –

Relative freedom, relative freedom in comparison, because I saw that my sisters had great amount of freedom in comparison to their peers

Yes

At that time

Yes

Aa they studies, they are all professional in their generation. My elder sister was studying at the same level as me, she studied in London at first and then AUB

Hmm

Later she got her master’s and taught and got married. My younger sister went to Egypt, both of them went to Egypt, got their PhD, aaa got their bachelors and then went to America and Canada to get their PhD and worked in the medical school – so all of our family was brought up as a progressive liberal but respected conventions

And a focus on education

Focus on education and focus on science

Hmm

Science, more than social – none of us are social science, me and my sisters all studied aspects – science aspects - pure sciences and engineering

And and but your father and mother studied –

No, they were general, meaning my father was general stu – he was in Dar Al Moalemen –

Yes

Dar Al Moalemen means he studies math and and and English and Arabic and – Dar Al Moalemen is two years after secondary school

Yes

There is no specialization, you learn the principles of teaching

Yes

At that time when you had a degree from Dar Al Moalemen, it’s a big deal, they brought him in as head of mission, why did they bring him as head of mission? There is a story, he said – because they were four –

Yes

They named him as head of mission, because they wanted someone with experience in the Gulf, they did not find anyone with experience in the Gulf, just my father who studied in Baghdad and taught in Hillah, so they thought he was the closest person to the Gulf

Yes aa

He knew a bit of dialect and also because the Iraqi dialect was close to the Kuwaiti dialect in many of its vocabulary

And and in the fift - by the late fifties your father worked in Kuwait you mentioned in –

In the Ministry of Interior

Hmm

He held - the assistant undersecretary position in the last stage for financial and administrative affairs

Yes and – what did he work on there? Were you familiar with his work or did you visit him for example?

Exhausting

Hmm

I remember he was exhausted

Hmm

Because he was complaining that he was responsible for salaries, budget, expenses and - especially salaries, a large number of officers at the Ministry of the Interior, officers, and soldiers, and they must get their salaries in cash

Ahh

At that time, you got your salary in cash, he had about 40-50 employees

Ohh

In the - sector he was in charge of, but I mean - he came home around two, two thirty to have lunch. On the weekends, he went to Sheikh Saad in his diwan to have lunch or there was – I don’t know who was – In Bayan, there was a palace there, what’s the name of the palace the – there was a palace adjacent to a palace - between the fifth and sixth –

In Mishref?

Palace – yes Mishref

Hmm

I do not know – Abdullah Al Mubarak I believe was in Mishref

Hmm

Isn’t it?

Hmm

Yes, they used to have lunch at Abdullah Al Mubarak on – Friday, I mean he was a family man

Yes

He did not go to diwaniyas often, he did not go – Originally, in the fifties as I – remember and according to what people told me, the visits to diwaniyas were not as they are done now

Ahh

First of all, it was not during the night

Yes

I mean and and – not everyone had a diwaniya and opened a diwaniya

Hmm

But the the the – I mean the financially able or elderly

Certain personas

Yes, and then they open the diwaniya for one day a week - On the seaside, there were ten diwaniyas, ten in Qiblah, ten in Sharq – Not every house had a diwaniya

(Alali laughs)

There wasn’t - for us who were raised – we did not – hear about this. I am telling you, my father used to, mostly, visit Sheikh Saad and sometimes Sheikh Sabah and Abdullah Al Mubarak

Yes

Those were the people he visited during the weekend

Yes

He had lunch with them, during the holidays and passed by and greeted them and sometimes he went to Alateeqi, because his relationship with Alateeqi was strong, and in funerals and the the – the people he closely knew, but the way this has changed

This way

Yes - everyone has a diwaniya and everyone must visit all the diwaniyas. I do not do that

Hmm

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) I – I cannot, I’m committed to going to one diwaniya

Yes

Once a week which is aa - our relative, Alaqeel house, they are our relatives and and a group, we play cards or chat

(Alali Laughs)

We visit – and just once a week

Yes

As for – the – notion that you have to visit – during Eid, you have to, during - Ramadan you have to pass by the first ten days and visit all the diwaniyas, why?

You –

My father used to tell me; this was not the norm in Kuwait

Yes

Especially in the thirties and up to the fifties

Hmm

It was not there the way it became. This happened after the Manakh

Yes

And the abundance of aaa free time and wealth, everyone created a diwaniya and bragged about it

Yes

And what do you do in the diwaniya? I mean, what do you do? You cannot do much more than once a week, twice a week

Indeed

But the notion that every night, every night you go to a diwaniya, and you have to go to ten diwaniyas, you can’t - I think this is one of the phenomena that was positive and became negative

Yes

I mean, it is still positive, but there is undoubtedly a negative part about it

Yes, aa well, I would like to just ask you as well about the the libraries. You said that in Damascus, you used to go to a library called Al-Hek - Al-Hekma Library –

I believe Al Hekma Library

In Kuwait –

I do not remember, perhaps, I need to se - see or or – or Dar Al Hekma

Hmm

Dar Al Hekma or something of this sort, I entered, books were this big, he goes to bring a folder and it wasn’t easily, you must have a subscription and your father must - guarantee you and come - not anyone who goes in gets a book, and you open it, and you must return it as it was, lengthy process

Yes, rituals

But it was worth it

Yes

But it was worth it, I mean, some of these books you cannot find anywhere else, and not everyone can afford to buy these books aaa

And in Kuwait, during this period –

During the Kuwait phase aa the the books I got were through the school, because we had a library

Yes

Separate, building, a building called the library building, we went there to study and any book we wanted was there

Hmm

We took the books and brought them home, borrowed them, read them and brought them back, huge quantities in Arabic language, in English language, I mean, it was a real library, a school library, you check out books, and that is why when I went to Egypt, I studied in Egypt the first two years – I was upset because there wasn’t any university libraries where you can borrow books

Yes

While in Kuwait, there was a special library in Shuwaikh Secondary School, which had the greatest books, and you could borrow them and take them home.

Yes

You read the books and return them

And as for magazines, because you also mentioned -

Ah, my father continued to read Al-Mosawer, Aakher Sa’a and Rose Al Yousef and and I do not know what else - During our secondary school days we used to read them - Kuwaiti newspapers began to be published at that time

Hmm

I remember Al Hadaf

Ah, yes

I remember Al Hadaf. It was a nationalist political magazine

Was there a specific book or aa -

Khalaf, one of the aa I don’t know which one was the owner of the newspaper – Khalf, I don’t know – some a cultural family, Khalef something and Mohammad Fadhel - or not Fadhel

Hmm

The one who became a parliament member later on

Yes

And there was Al Resalah

Aha

Al Resalah I believe was there - Not sure when Al Tale’a was launched but I don’t remember – I believe it was launched later on, not in the – of course, there was the Al Istiqlal Club, The Arab Nationalists Club, which I learned about and became a member

Am –

Ahmed Alkhateeb

When did you meet them?

Aa during secondary school I – I didn’t go there, I was young, but I used to hear about them, but I got to know them mostly in Cairo

Yes

During the first two years of college, the Kuwait Students Union in Cairo. They were in their early stage, and it always dominated by the Arab nationalists

Hmm

They were from Ahmed Alkhateeb group, one of them was Dr. Sulaiman Alaskari

Yes

Faisal Masoud, may God rest his soul, aaa Abdelaal – Abderlnaser Abdelaal, Khaled Alwasmi

Hmm

The parliament member aaa - of course, there was a group of them in Beirut like Alnafisi – Ahmed Alnafisi

Yes

These were the Beirut group, and those were the Cairo group

Hmm

So, I became part of the group in Cairo

Yes

Aa I heard of them in Kuwait, but I did not have the time aa that – but in Cairo aa I used to go to Bayt el Kuwait and and and they were as you may say is a focus not just for Kuwaitis, for Egyptians and Lebanese, all the – this Bayt el Kuwait was a lavish house, it can accommodate activities and lectures and intellectual seminars all, all the time and everybody was excited about, at that time the 61 union just ended, broke up, so they became very political synthesized in 61 - 62

In Cairo

61 in Cairo with – through the Kuwait Students Union

Yes a well, is there any anything else about the secondary school phase that I might have aa not asked you about or anything you would like to add about this period? Whether socially in Kuwait or in in school, in secondary school or personally?

No, maybe the one thing is that aa my feelings and belonging were rooted in secondary school

Yes hmm

As a citizen, I mean

Yes

Rooted in secondary school, from few percent to %100 in a short period of time

Yes

And the reason for that is that it, it offered me a lot that I have been dreaming about

Hmm

Whether it’s learning, sports, socializing, growing up, adolescence, all these things

Yes

Were formed ….. as - as

As an identity or –

As a citizen’s identity

Yes

Were formed in secondary school, maybe more than other people because of my background I could have been different

Yes aaa well aa since you mentioned –

I had friends, possibly the only thing – I had Arab friends

Hmm

Besides – my Kuwaiti friends, they were close to me and and aa - one of them was a Pakistani

Hmm

And he stayed in Kuwait, living in Kuwait, and we kept a relation. The person who changed the course of my life the most is an Algerian friend

Hmm, in what way?

Let me tell you, he liked physics just like me

Hmm

We were in the same class, and – at that time in secondary school, third and fourth year you have to declare a specialization

Hmm

Not like it is now, it is like a specialty

Yes

What does specialization mean? It means one subject, so you take extra courses

In a specific field, yes

So, both of us, because we loved physics – we declared physics

Yes

In our class, of the students who declared physics, Khaled Albabtain joined us

Hmm

The Ambassador, the ones I remember, this Algerian student was with us, his name was Judi Altaher

Yes

Judi hmm - He was from the Algerian group, the Algerians who were adopted by the State of Kuwait, who were the sons of the Algerian Mujahideen, the sons of the revolution

Ahh

Kuwait used to give scholarships to their children to come to Kuwait

Beautiful

They lived in dorms, and I had a relation with Judi and and the rest of them, the Algerians, because we were nationalists, and they held the same principles and Jamila Bouhired

Ha

And the film you know and and scientifically I was very close to him, and we were competing in friendly way

Yes

We helped each other and cared, and what are you going to do, I will study, and you will study and Einstein…

(Alali laughs)

And so, ambitions and fantasies, and such – so this was part of the formation of my character stage in secondary school, my interaction with this group, these Algerians who were hosted by Kuwait

Yes

Giving them scholarships, and not just the political aspect, the scientific aspect was stronger, especially through my friendship with aaa

Judi Altaher

Judi Altaher, and who Ambassador Sh - Shuhaiber knows him very well

Hmm aa well

So, Judi finished school and I did too, I was top of my class and – I was known to be the best, in both third and fourth year I was the top student, third and fourth – he was – in physics he did excellent, just as good as me

Yes

But in Arabic language, his language was poor he couldn’t – couldn’t – couldn’t compete with me as they say

Well, since you brought up this subject the - generally, or personally, did you feel that at this stage, for example there was aa lack of acceptance of the other aa

No

By Kuwaitis, or –

As I told you, I came back – it is true that my father in the thirties, but I came – I mean I came back to Kuwait

Hmm

I did not feel that from any of my classmates - on the contrary, they all treated me as a K - Kuwaiti - but of Palestinian origin, but that I am part of the group, and the Algerians who were with us were treated in an excellent way, and the Palestinians and the Lebanese. In the dorms, there were people from multiple nationalities, I mean, in the same dorm –

Yes

You will find Algerians, Yemenis, and Kuwaitis and – living together

Beautiful

In the same dorm, and this feeling was not there

Yes

There was no discrimination - on the contrary, I mean, for example, in secondary school, first of all, the teachers did not differentiate between us and and and you are treated based on your performance

Hmm

And based on your character

Yes

I mean, we had few Kuwaiti guys

Ah

Their character was not so good

(Alali laughs)

I will not say their names

Yes (Alali laughs)

But they were punished

Yes

Sulaiman Almutawa, and Ibrahim Alshatti punished them

Yes

May God have mercy on him, he died recently, the person that followed Suliman Almutawa, Ibrahim Alshatti, the Chinese – who else did we have? They were three or four, they were the ones who were first there aaa - yeah so, the Kuwaiti professor punished them – and when we gathered gathered with them as a group; Kuwaiti and non-Kuwaiti

Yes, a group of students

A group of students

Aa well

So, it was a nice time

Before we conclude this stage, you mention that you were the top –

I was the top student

Was there a celebration on the part of your parents or the school for this – for this achievement?

And how do you know you are the top student? You wait and tune in to the radio

Ahh

At eight in the evening

(Alali laughs)

The result was announced, they said my name and my father’s name of course - of course, if I was not the stop student, my father would have punished me (Shihab-Eldin laughs)

(Alali laughs)

No, he wouldn’t have punished me, he would have been disappointed, because already in third year I was the top student

Yes

And he was really expecting me to be the top student in secondary school and indeed, praise be to God, I succeeded and was the first. The the the, there was no higher reward than being the the, I mean, you were told yes good work now we can be proud of you. They gave me a watch I think and a camera or something of this sort

Yes

Just gifts I mean

Ohh beautiful

From my father – a watch as a gift – I believe they gave me a camera, I used to love photography

Hmm

I used to love a particular camera, Canon I believe, they bought it for me, and I took with me – It stayed with me for two or three years during college

Yes

I loved it, Canon I believe

Yes

I think a watch, not sure a – it was status quo status watch

Yes

Aaa the year – I graduated from secondary school, was the year of Abd al-Karim Qasim threats, so we stayed put in Kuwait

Yes

Nobody left until they were gone. We travelled late on a scholarship, we travelled in September, early in September, we were already late, I went to London at first, I told you then I came back to Cairo

Hmm

That summer we – we spent it in Kuwait aaa reading aa the sea expecting to learn the news, the British soldiers who came to Kuwait, and then the Arab League, and when can we travel, and the scholarships, and finishing papers

Yes

And you know these were the things

Yes aa well, I believe this is a good time to stop

Yeah

My name is Reem Alali and we are in Salmiya and today’s date hmm is 16 March 2021 and this is the second interview with Dr. Adnan Shihab-Eldin, conducted as part of the Oral History Project at the American University of Kuwait’s Library aa Thank you Dr. Adnan again for agreeing to do the interview. In the first session we stopped at the post-secondary school stage, and you mentioned that you applied for a scholarship to study abroad. Can you tell me about this period, and why and where did you think you would go to study at first

I didn’t – we didn’t didn’t talk about this period

But you mentioned that you were about to go to Egypt

Yes yes

And then

Let me recall

Yes sure

Let me tell you what happened – of course, I graduated from secondary school, I may have mentioned this to you. I was among the top students, the top of my class in secondary school aaa for two consecutive years. I had a classmate aaa one of the Algerian students who were hosted by the State of Kuwait aa either from the sons of the Mujahideen warriors or the Liberation Front because Kuwait had a strong relationship with the liberation movements and supported the liberation movement. He was with me in secondary school for two or three years. I was aaa I mean, we were not competing, we were colleagues in - our love for science in general and physics in particular, and we were– considered the top two students in physics in secondary school, and, I mean, we decided to study physics and we were impressed by the modern theories that we learned in a simple way, aaa nuclear physics and - the theory of relativity, and Einstein, and quantum mechanics and we were passionate – because – so when I was about to go on a scholarship I applied aa to the Ministry of Education at that time, they told me I have few options, either go to London

Hmm

Or Egypt or Beirut. This was for the students choosing to study physics and the ones who were specialized in physics during secondary school, because in third and fourth year of secondary school we specialized in either chemistry, or physics, or math, or biology, four specializations

Hmm

And in my assessment, this was not correct, but this was the the situation, so we decided to go to London because it is better than Egypt and we were late in going because of aa the military threats in 61, the Iraqi army on the - and the British interference , then the Arab League and the Egyptian forces, so this delayed all the the processes, when things became clear, we left late in September

Hmm

When we went, we were welcomed by the – Cultural Office – There weren't many students, so they cared about us very much

Hmm

Because our numbers were – and we stayed for the first night in ho - in a hotel, and I stayed with another Kuwaiti, I think his name is Faisal Almajid

Hmm

Aaa he studied in India for most of his secondary education

Hmm

Aaa and my sister was with me, we even arrived on the same flight, my sister, and her colleague Naima Alshayji

Hmm

So – anyway - in short, I mean, later they told me that you must stay for few days in London, and they also said that I was assigned to study in the O level before going to college, I did not know what the O level and the A level were, for me I finished secondary school

(Alali laughs)

And going to college, I mean this was all the information we had

Hmm

At that time, there was no internet

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) and google and the student guidance wasn’t wasn’t wasn’t – robust and it also happened that there were military threats, and this meant that the situation was tense in Kuwait for two months

Hmm

There wasn’t - so aa - my sister left, they sent her to the southwest edge in the leg of England and I was in Croydon

Hmm

Just an hour from London by train or even less and and and I lived with an Irish person and I went to school, I found out that it is a high school and I needed at least two years to finish and qualify for university, I was to take the O level, ordinary G - GCC they call it ordinary something, and then I take the A Level either in a year or two and then I go to the second year in university - The second second - I mean, over three years, I lose two years, so I got depressed

Hmm

I was really depressed and got some treatment

Hmm

At that time, there were no telephones, we cannot pick up the phone every day and talk to Kuwait, it was expensive and costly - So I called my parents and we agreed - that I transfer, ask for a transfer because I was not comfortable, because the classes I was studying, I already studied all of them and in Arabic, but I mean

Ahh

Physics, and math, I studied all of them and knew them well, so in short, there was an arrangement, I saw the cultural attaché, I believe he passed away, Professor Zakriya Alansari

Hmm

And he was a kind person and – he advised me at first to try, but said eventually that as long as I was not comfortable, and what made my depression worse was the change of weather

Hmm

From living under the sun – living in Kuwait, to going to London, at that time London’s summer was short

Yes

It was not like how it is today and most of the time it was rainy and cloudy, so it was depressing because I am not used to it

Yes

And we were – we did not have much, we were students, I don’t want to take too long talking about this – it was a short period – I got transferred afterwards, and they asked me where do you want to transfer, I said Cairo, I went to Bayt el Kuwait and my papers were sent before I arrived, they applied on my behalf, I was a top student

Ha

My grade was 95 and they said there was no problem, I started college, I arrived in late October - mid October

That was in 62

61, 61 I took a flight I even had an Indian businessman sitting next to me. We shared a room at the Hilton

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) The first night we stayed at the Hilton. Anyway aaa I went to the cultural office, and they told me we registered you, we registered physics. After few days they told me that the registrar wanted to see me, the general registrar at Cairo University which had 100,000 students wanted to see me, I got scared

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) I asked why? Because many of my classmates during secondary school – non-Kuwaitis, there were few Kuwaitis, because most of the Kuwaitis I studied with went to America and – and Beirut

Hmm

Few of them, I mean, there were few, Abdulaziz Almutawa went with us, engineering and another one. So aa they called me. I said, ok, I’ll go. I saw the registrar, he really cared about me – I did not wait long at the door, I met him, he asked me to sit. He said you applied to study at the College of Sciences, physics

Hmm

I said yes, he told me that they won’t aa enroll me – at the College of Sciences

Hmm

We will enroll you in either engineering or medicine, I asked him why? He said: son, only students with a final grade over 90 can enroll in the colleges of engineering and medicine, and your grade is 95, I mean, you are considered a top student. Students with 60-65 grade can enroll in the College of Sciences so – I won’t – Won’t let you enroll in the College of Sciences, but my advice if you love science, enroll in engineering and study electrical

Hmm

And if you study electrical, most of electrical is physics, so you can study and then you aa can study further. I agreed and stayed for two years in Cairo

And choose engineering

I choose science, I choose engineering, electrical

Great

Electrical engineering in Cairo was five years

Hmm

- There was a preparatory year, and then four years. In truth, we had excellent teachers. I mean, I don't want to deny that, I mean, really - I remember them. One named Bakhoum who was a mathematician with a well-known book, and another named Salah al-Din Khashaba who taught mechanics, and so on, I mean aa Hassan Fathi, whose daughter is Farida Fahmy, the dancer.

Ahh

The famous traditional

Oh yes

He was avant-garde and he he was a liberal

Ohh

I mean, he was well-known in society and studied in England and was teaching us production engineering, and and he was a funny, a real character - so I learned from them and their characters a lot

Hmm

I mean, this Hassan Fathi and Bakhoum and Salah al-Din Khashabah, Salah al-Din Khashbah, may God have mercy on him, he passed away. He always frightened us. He entered wearing this English jacket that had

Patches

On the elbow

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) walking around and saying you kids think you are geniuses just because you enrolled in the College of Engineering, top of the top in Egypt and whoever came from Arab states, 10% of the top, he said e-e-e you will study and I will give you the sheet, the sheet meaning the homework, you will do the homework, with the teacher assistant, and you will take - and then you will take the exam, you have two options: fail or fail

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) he was trying to scare us – (Shihab-Eldin laughs) so we learned from them, truthfully, they were really – the the the the teachers, the professors they were excellent, but Cairo University was in decline

Hmm

Because, I mean, we are talking about 61 after 56, socialism, the Egyptian economy started - to shrink. There was no currency to import goods aa the laboratory equipment, the library was poor aa so - this aspect of my student life was not useful, at the same time I was writing to whom? to my secondary school classmate, may God have mercy on him, Judi Altaher

The Algerian

The Algerian, the one who got a full pride scholarship

Hmm

They used to give the Algerians full pride scholarship or something like that, to study in America, he chose Berkeley because it had the most Nobel prize winners in physics, and the famous Lawrence laboratories, where they developed the nuclear bomb and the

Ahh

Uranium and plutonium, and they discovered many things in these labs, so I used to write to him, and he told me about the labs and the Nobel prize winners and the national laboratory up on the hill and so on and I started comparing with (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and seeing how –

In Egypt

So, I was not satisfied with this this aspect, I mean, I was - at the same time, in truth - studying in Egypt, from the social and political aspects, was exceptional

Hmm

The Kuwait Students Union

Yes

Was very strong, it was controlled by Arab nationalists and the Baathists competed with them, and they were, as you may say, a center for Arab students in general because it had potentials, the Kuwait Students Union

Hmm

There was the Bayt el Kuwait where they gathered and – their leadership, I remember them aaa still Khaled Almasoud

Hmm

No, Khaled Almasoud has passed away, aa Khaled Alwasmi who became a parliament member

Hmm

And and Suliman Alaskari

Yes

Aaa

Do you remember any of the activities organized by Bayt el Kuwait in -

They always had lectures

Hmm

They always had educational trips, a lecturer came with us. We used to go to Ain Sukhna, Alexandria, we would ride buses singing Kuwaiti songs and clapping and so on

(Alali laughs)

Bu - but they were political

Hmm

Very highly political, I used to study in Bayt el Kuwait

Hmm

They had a nice, and it wasn’t too far away from my home, I was in Ad Doqi and Bayt el Kuwait was in Ad Doqi. Abdulaziz Hussein, may God have mercy on him, was – the president of Bayt el Kuwait, and later became and an ambassador, aaa there was a library in Bayt el Kuwait for Kuwaiti students, we used to study there, I was the last one to leave –

(Alali laughs)

But I attended the student activities

Yes

I mean I used to attend – I didn’t stay long, I finished the preparatory year and the first year, by the middle of the first year I felt that that – I wasn’t fulfilling my ambition

Hmm

Especially compared to my classmate Judi Altaher

Hmm

Who was writing to me and telling me what he was learning and who was teaching him aa Chamberlain, who discovered antiproton and I don’t know who else (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and and, I mean, it was, so I started working on my transfer

Hmm

And he advi -

Before we move to this period aa you mentioned that in Cairo there were political inclinations for for the – students aa Do you remember, for example, a certain group or you personally? Did you have any orientation –

I was a supporter of Arab nationalism

Hmm

We were all in secondary school politically charged - since the 56th war and the demonstrations that took place in Kuwait

Hmm

In 58 and and and you know there was a nationalist wave in all the Arab world

Yes

You are either a nationalist or or a Baathist, or something not far from Arab nationalism. The Islamic movements were very weak

Ahh

Very - they were very weak during the – I mean, almost unmentionable

Aha

I may have mentioned to you, during secondary school there wasn’t

Yes

Aaa I mean, even, I mean, I remember things, I remember simple things, I mean, for example there was no call to prayer in the –

Hmm

Although we had a mosque

Yes

In secondary school and perseverance in attending the prayer in - in congregation - it was weak

Hmm

Not much of a number – Anyway, the the the nationalist wave that was spreading helped - I used to participate in cultural activities and read the books, but I was not part of the organized group, I mean, I was one of their supporters

Did – you participate for example in any demonstrations or any –

There were no demonstrations in Egypt but there was - aaa they called them - activities

Hmm

For example, they would organize a seminar in the Kuwait, Kuwait Students Association, they had a place in Ad Doqi other than Bayt el Kuwait

Hmm

And and – they organized – invited lecturers from Lebanon from Egypt, some many Arab students attended and and – I used to participate in these –

And do you remember specific lecturers aa you were interested in personally?

Aa I believe – no - I mean, I believe the ones that used to lecture // the ones they invited from Beirut, I believe once they invited Al Hakeem

Hmm

George Habash I think –

Hmm

They used to call him Al Hakeem aaaa - I do not remember the names from Kuwait, at that time Aljarrallah was still the cultural attaché, Khaled – Khaled Aljarrallah, had a dark skin

Hmm

I only remember the lectures but not all the lecturers, they were either political or cultural. For example, they would host a famous writer, I don’t remember if Najeeb Mahfouz for example came once, it is possible, but I can’t -

Where you interested in literature since you brought up –

I was – yes - I used used to love literature, I loved classical music, I used to go to the opera, the famous old opera house

Hmm

In Egypt and and and and what helped me a lot in Egypt is aa my cousi - my cousin was two years my senior

Hmm

And she was in Egypt in the Kuwaiti girl’s student dorm, and aa she was also an Arab nationalist

Hmm

Active and such and the and the and the – so she used to for example, because she was – she was studying English literature, so she used – to always give me the books

(Alali laughs)

I take the books the the the the novels, I believe one of these novels was for Albert Camus

Hmm

And and and aaa philosophical novels – I used to read them

Yes

I used to read them but I also at the same time could not get enough of of science

Yes

I mean I even used to go to a bookstore named the Anglo bookstore, where they sell textbooks in English

Hmm

They didn’t have I keep looking there, but they didn’t have the latest books, I mean you hardly found such books

Yes

I used to take these books with me to Beirut during the summer and read them

(Alali laughs)

George Gamow – books of this sort, but mainly political, the Arab cultural political section was excellent

Aaa were there any entertainment activities for example?

Yes we were – As a I told you, we used to – take buses – to picnic, Ain Sukhna, swimming, Alexandria aa with many Kuwaiti students and sometimes on my own. I take the train during the weekends and stay in this famous hotel names Excelsior Palace – Alexandria is beautiful in winter

Hmm

Aaa I went – as I told you, I went to the theater, Arabic theater, and I especially - aa - went to classical music concerts at the opera house, and this was active in Egypt because they hosted eastern European musicians

Hmm

Easter Europeans from Russia were very strong in the music scene

Yes

For these countries, they invited – great ballet groups or just classical music concert and such. There was one Egyptian – his name was Khairat, Abu Baker Khairat or – he was an orchestra maestro, I even remember in the – opera house, I was in the second row and he - he wasn’t conducting, he was sitting in the first row

Ahh

I met him

Ohhh

And days passed, and I met him later on when I went to Egypt aa as the head of the UNESCO Bureau in the nineties, we met each other again

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) so it was, I mean he he remembered that there used to be a Kuwaiti student that attended concerts at the opera house

Wow

Huh – I, of course, remembered – I knew him, his name was Khairat, I forgot his first name, Abu Baker or or something else. He was famous, he was the Egyptian orchestra maestro, anyway this is what happened, so – by the middle of my first year, after I finished the preparatory year and the first year and I I was doing very well, we were a thousand students, what bothered me was there was a thousand students in the lecture, you didn’t get the opportunity to ask the professor – a single question – you want to make an appointment with the professor, how?

One thousand in the lecture hall

The hall – one thousand – we were one thousand in the preparatory. We studied mathematics and mechanical, one thousand, I came from Kuwait where we were twenty, twenty five students (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and tutoring, when I went there, I was lost, I was good

Hmm

But I was struggling to ask questions

Yes

And I was always in……., and also I couldn’t get books from the library – you look for a book and you can’t. To borrow a book, you have to put your name on a waiting list, and your turn to borrow the book might be in three months

Yeah

If ever you get your turn to borrow the book, so that was really very very sort of... So, in my correspondence with Judi, he suggested that I transfer, and I agreed, and he told me it’s best to study engineering physics

Hmm

Do not study physics, because it will be easier for you to transfer but you should study - study engineering physics, it’s the same thing

Yes

Or electrical engineering, since you are studying electrical. I contacted the university, and they told me that they have a system to test students who finished two years and move them to third year, not – because they have a 4-years system

Hmm

So, we will send you an exam that you can take at the America Embassy, to see if you are eligible to move to the third year or not

Great

And I was still in my first year

Hmm

I mean I was studying in my first year, it was March or April, the test came in, the embassy called me, the American Embassy in Cairo, they said the exam papers arrived, you can take the test on this specific day, I went, and they gave me the papers, some were equations, and some were yes or no

Yeah (Alali laughs)

Upper, it is called the upper division test, they offer it to Americans

Yeah

Who would like to move from a junior college to a university

University, yeah

You know, it’s a university. So, I took the test…… and was surprised that I got an admission

Ahh

Why did I pass all the subjects? Because that was the advantage, that Cairo University had at that time an excellent reputation in America

Oh great

Cairo University, why did they accept all the subjects? Because they have Egyptian PhD students, so they knew that they studied -

At a certain level

So, when I passed all the subjects, and was told “you can move to thri - third year and and and finish in two years if you want”

(Alali laughs)

So, it was an opportunity. Now what was the problem? that I wanted to transfer

Hmm

Transfer, and I have another scholarship

Yes

So, I came to Kuwait aa at first, I came to Kuwait and went to the Ministry of Education, and they told me – “we transferred you to Egypt- from England to Egypt, and now you would like us to transfer you to America again, that is not possible”. That was the initial response, of course, I was upset, I went - my father was in Beirut I believe, or I went with them to Beirut, they spent the summer in Bhamdoun as usual and – I asked him to help and pay for my transfer, he told me to wait. Of course, my father was known in Kuwait, he taught and had many friends and loved ones, one of them was Faisal Alsaleh, I believe he is still alive, Faisal Alsaleh, was was – he was at first the head of the scholarship directorate, and then became the Ministry’s undersecretary I believe, because the one who told me, Abdullah Almufaraj, told me we cannot, Abdullah Almufaraj. When I went to see Faisal, my father took me to see Faisal Alsaleh so that Alsaleh - he talked to him, Faisal then spoke to me, Faisal is one of the Kuwaiti personalities who did not - he said no problem as long as you moved from a university in Egypt to Berkeley, go to Berkeley, and he wrote on a piece paper and asked me to go to Kuwait

(Alali laughs)

He wrote on a paper; approved, I went back to Kuwait, finalized the process, and left

In Beirut he wrote you an “approved paper”

Yes, he wrote me an approval paper, and told me to go to Abdullah Almufaraj and ask him – and it seems – I went back to Abdullah and talked to him, and he said it’s ok

Hmm

He asked me to finalize my papers – and I did – At that time, for you to go to America, any student who wished to go to America must undergo a medical examination at the Americani Hospital, the Americani Hospital, I think they were doing medical examinations

Here in Kuwait

In Kuwait

Ahh

And take an x-ray from the Americani hospital I believe - take the x-ray – You have to take a fresh x-ray to check first for tuberculosis

Ohh

In addition to the yellow vaccination cards

Yes

We were not able to travel without the vaccination certificates

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) not like nowadays and the fear of vaccinations, smallpox, tuberculosis, the the children’s vaccination, all – Anyway, I was happy to finalize my papers, got on an airplane and left. Of course, the long-distance flight arrived in New York. I was to stay in New York for few days in the - meet the cultural attaché and leave. When we landed, they saw my papers, passport, vaccination certificates, and the X-ray, and and - They told me to stand on the side, I mean they put me on the side, I wondered why. After a while, someone came over and told me the X-ray was not clear, so we have to put you in quarantine. We have a hospital, b – You know where the Statue of liberty is? Where it is? Staten Island

Ohh yeah

They had a quarantine hospital for international travelers. I was put on a bus - the Kuwait embassy or the cultural office were waiting for me, they found out what happened and sent me a message that they will call me the next day. I went to a ward, I went to a ward where there were many sick Americans – an open ward with no rooms. There were twenty to thirty beds. I spent the night there and the next day I got and x-ray and was released (Shihab-Eldin laughs) I went -

You could not communicate with your family during this time

There were no

To tell them

The only ones I contacted that night – what communicating? A call with my parents and this - phones were not readily available and calls were expensive, not like - you – to make an international call, first of all, not every phone had an international call option

International

And there were no mobiles

And this was your first time in America?

Yes, my first time in America (Shihab-Eldin laughs) and this happens. Anyway aa I left and stayed in the Bristol Hotel, where Kuwaitis usually stayed

Hmm

Close to 42nd Street, all the Kuwaitis stayed there – and the, and the, and the cultural office was not too far away in the Rockefeller Plaza, it was very impressive, I mean, visiting New York

Yes

Seeing the high-rise and the s- sky

hmm

I was really excited to be in America to be very honest with you, after watching films

Hmm

And my cousin who was with me in secondary school in the same class was in America to study mathematics

Ohh

He was studying in California, and happened to be in New York so we saw each other, he told me he had a car, and I can join him in his drive back instead of travelling by plane, and I can take the ticket money from the office and and spend it elsewhere

(Alali laughs)

And be my com- my companion – I did not have a driver license, but he said no problem, you do not need to drive just keep me awake

02: 33: 45

(Alali laughs)

And I took the ticket money and got in the car and we drove from New York to California, we did it in 3 nights almost non-stop. The first night, not sure where we slept, in Indiana- in the Midwest, I believe, the next day - the next night we slept in Denver and then from Denver we drove to Berkeley non-stop – 24 hours, we encountered accidents and and – anyway, it was an experience for me, arriving in America and seeing -

Yes

(Shihab Eldin laughs) everything on the same day

In less than a week

In less than three days I saw all of America, which was really an eye opener, from the Midwest to the, and it was September, early in September, and we arrived at Berkley at seven in the morning, he went

That was in 64

63

63

Yes

You were young and it was your first time in America

American yes, my first time there - and and I had the address of two Kuwaitis studying at Berkeley, relatives of ours

Hmm

I never met them, just heard of them, huh, two or one? Sorry it was one, one was there, and his brother was joining him, as they told me

Hmm

I took they addresses and phone numbers – Of course I had Judi’s address

Hmm yes

My friend at Berkeley, I – I stayed in a small hotel on my first night – because we arrived six, seven in the morning, with no sleep

Yes

So aa it was called Nash Hotel, I stayed in Nash Hotel, around the afternoon, 12 I took a shower and took a walk, to see Judi

Ahh

I got to his place, I had the address - knocked on the door, a woman who seemed Chinese opened the door, I realized it’s his girlfriend, because he always told me about her

Yes

Chinese, I recognized her, I told her my name, is Judi there? She told me you don’t know? I said what? She said Judi was in Algeria and died in a car accident

Ohh ohh yes

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) I just got there

Ohh

Of course, I was shocked

Yes

Not just because he was my friend, but also because he is gonna be my in my physics partner

Yes

I mean, we will experience physics and continue our passion for sciences

Yes

And so, I was depressed, and then I went to the hot - home and and, anyway I went to a restaurant and called Abdullah Alaqeel

Hmm

And I met – I became part of the the the Kuwaiti group - aaa I studied the third year in engineering and the fourth, I was so well grounded in Egypt

Hmm

In physics and in mathematics and in mechanics, so much so that I was – s – I was a straight A student at a university such as Berkeley

Wow

And and I was I was known to be st - studious, because I used to study at the library, always, I always loved studying at libraries

Hmm

Aaa and I was competing with the Chinese

(Alali laughs)

On who gets the highest grades, the Chinese were studious, they never left the library

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) my Kuwaiti friends would cook machbous at home

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) and they wanted me to join, I wanted to stay – anyway aaa there were – a competition between us, so it’s nice. So, I became involved because it was not that difficult. I also became involved in organizing Arab students’ activities.

Aa ok aa before we move to this point aa when you moved to the university, where did you live -

I lived in a dorm

Hmm

At first, I stayed in the hotel I mentioned and then Abdullah Alaqeel was Khaled’s roommate, God rest his soul

Hmm

And Bader Alsalem, God rest his soul also, they all passed away, Bader Alsalem was living with a Saudi student, Abdullah used to fight a lot with - Khaled Alasfour, Khaled Alasfour, an engineer, he was studying engineering – studying civil engineering, he suggested that I take his place and live with Khaled Alasfour, and he would move in with Bader Alsalem – this - ten, twenty meters, I agreed so I was aa subleasing aa Khaled was very nice, he was about to graduate, it was his last year, and Abdullah was also in his last year, and Bader I think – no Bader was not a senior, Bader was studying architecture

Ahh

Abdullah’s brother joined us, he was studying mathematics, his name was Abdelaziz Alaqeel Zaman

Hmm

And we were joined that year - no, the following year, 64, by Abdulhameed Alali and and Sheikh Ali Al Khalifa

Hmm

Who became the oil minister

Hmm

Very well-known

Hmm

A group came in – came in 64, during the first year – there was only this group, anyway in 64 I lived with a Libyan student – they graduated, Khaled Alasfour graduated, Abdullah graduated, aa I lived with a – Libyan student studying engineering physics, and we became very close friends

Hmm

I mean – almost the same thing, I graduated electrical, but I was mostly studying physics, in America it was very flexible, you had core requirements, and you can select the rest

Beautiful

I was basically a physicist I mean aaa but in 63 I started – I was very involved in the Arab students in America movements in – at first at the Berkeley chapter, in America there was a chapt - there was one organization for Arab students - not Kuwaitis, so you may, not affect the degree of

Hmm

And Egyptians, and at the same time

Hmm

They were influence by the nationalist wave, and there was always a competition between the Arab nationalists and the Nasserites, or the Nasserite Egyptian group and the Baathist group, on who controls the chapters and who controls the national, there was a national office in Washington

Hmm

So, I became very active in the Berkley chapter

Hmm

And then aa I attended the general conference in Pittsburgh - after I finished my first year and was doing excellent

Hmm

They suggested – the cultural office suggested - that I take the summer session in a different university

Hmm

They suggested – I asked where, and they said Harvard or MIT, I applied and went to Harvard, I took aaa two courses in the summer session and did very well

Hmm

And and and at the same time, there was the Arab Students Organization, because I was active in the Berkeley chapter so there was aaa no, the the the, no in the, in 64 I did not go to New York, I went in 65. Anyway aa after I was done with Harvard, they asked me to attend the annual conference of Arab students which was in Pittsburgh. I attended the annual conference, during which, they suggested that I run in the executive committee elections, the nationalists had – they only had one or - or two people to nominate and they wanted someone from the Gulf

Hmm

And I was very active, I was listed in the Arab nationalists election group and and, and there was a second Kuwaiti who ran as an independent. He won. The Nasserites won along with the Arab nationalists, and the independents won as well

Hmm

The student from Kuwait was Sabah Alrayyes, engineer Sabah Alrayyes, I am sure you have heard of him

Hmm

So, he was – elected as treasurer, I was elected as vice chairman

Hmm

I believe our chairman was Ramzi Dallol, a Palestinian Lebanese, and we had a group; a Moroccan and. Anyway, I spent 64, 65, I spent it commuting to New York

Hmm from -

From San Francisco

Ohh, yeah

We had meetings at the office almost almost every other week, I might say it was on average once every three weeks

Oh wow, and what was the nature of your participation?

Organizing, organizing activities to champion Arab issues because it was an Arab students organization. What were the Arab issues? The most important issue was the Palestinian cause

Of course

And the liberation movements in the Arab world, aa colonization, the – issues of this nature – we used to organize many cultural events, host aa artists

Hmm

Take them on a tour in – America, one of them I believe was Ismaeel and Tamam Shamout, Palestinians, they organized for them an exhibition that toured America

Aha

Aa he hosted lecturers such as F - Fayez Alsayegh aaa - m – I forgot the other one’s name, he was in the Arab League, I forgot – anyway aa

Was there, when you organized these activities at the university was there

Was there

An opposing movement

Yes of course, our opposition were – not the Arabs, Israelis were our opposition, we would always get into debates with the Israelis

Hmm

I remember and there was - Berkeley was the crucible of the American student movement, from which the free speech movement, Mario Savio, anti-Vietnam war protest, they all emerged out of

Hmm

They all emerged out of Berkeley, and Berkeley was really, at that time, a spark of the the the rebellion against the classic

Hmm

So the the - There was a conflict between us and the Americans who support Israel and the Israelis with the Arabs. I mean, our main concern was the Palestinian cause

Hmm

Aa I don’t - aa oil issues for example, we talked about oil

Do you remember a specific situation that happened with someone aa for example, an activity you organized and -

I remember many - aa we were three, aa myself, a student named George Abed and and Egyptian man named I believe Sabry Alshabrawy, debating with an American and an Israeli, and it was in the Pauley Ballroom, which could accommodate hundreds of students

Hmm

And we did great, in the sense that our arguments was so successful. There was a standing ovation for our argument, this, this I remember (Shihab-Eldin laughs). And there was, the the the the chapter in 63 or 64, the Arab chapter at Berkeley was organizing many cultural activities and picnics and trips and I was active in that it was really nice atmosphere. Everyone participated, I mean, Kuwaitis, Egyptians, Lebanese and Palestinians

But, for example, as a Kuwaiti student representing Kuwait, was there, in terms of the Arabs students with you, was there - for example, did you sense any sensitivity?

On the contrary, I mean, there was, there was, the only sensitivity was they said they gave you a lot of money

(Alali laughs)

So that was always -

But not from a political aspect or from -

No, from the political aspect there wasn’t, even the Baathists, there wasn’t much of a conflict

Hmm

As I told you, there were no strong Islamic movements within the Arab Students Organization, whether in – I mean as I told you, in Kuwait, or in Egypt, or in America, they all started after 67

Hmm

After 67 in in in – I remember when I arrived in America, during my first first year, before joining the Arab Students Movement in my second year, there was an incident that I remember, I was just starting, I arrived in – I started school by mid-September, in mid-November or late November I had electrical engineering laboratory, lab – laboratory that had benches. We were asked to conduct an experiment, we had an oscilloscope to do measurements on circuits and we have to report the results, we meas - did measurements and checked the scope and printed and such. We have to build the circuits ourselves, and then do measurements and according to the type of experiment, there was - what you can say a shop inside

Hmm

You bring the transistors the the component the the the tools, in case there’s a malfunction or something, there were technicians inside

Hmm

We had a TA to supervise, and I remember walking into the shop looking for a transistor, I found the technician and asked for it, he said you do not know what just happened? he said it in English of course

Ahh

I said what? My English was still poor of course, but he was telling me Kennedy assassinated he is killed, President Kennedy

Hmm

I didn’t realize the the – and I went back – I didn’t go back to the bench to work, so the supervisor came over and asked why aren’t you working. I told him Kennedy got killed, he told me be serious sit down and do your work. He didn’t believe me

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) of course within minutes the news spread, I was one of the first to get to know because the technician was listening to the radio, the technician inside

Yes

He was listening to the radio, we weren’t, in the laboratory, none of us was listening to the radio. Neither the professor nor the, of course, we were affected by this accident. Then the anti-Vietnam movement started

Hmm

Aa I remember aa in 64 I was on one of the trips to the office – I believe it was in 64 at the beginning of the second semester, semester the the. No, it was 65. Anyway, the American student movement started to get more organized, and the free speech movement started. There were demonstrations at Berkeley, and they blocked the university, and the police and - but we, the students at Berkeley were divided into two groups

Hmm

They called them the north side, the engineering and the physics

(Alali laughs)

And the south side the south side were the social sciences and economics and the union

Yes

The student movement, and the cultural movement were in the south side

Yes

Because the student union was there, English students, political science, economics, sociology students, all all of them were in the south side

Hmm

We, engineering students and the were on the north side, so most of the time we went to the cafeterias and lounges in the north side, but when we went to – we saw the change taking place

Hmm

We noticed that students stopped wearing jackets – when I first arrived in America, like the rest of the students, when we went to class, we put on a jacket

Ohh

Jacket jacket like this and I have pictures with ties (Shihab-Eldin laughs) which is unheard of

Yes

When we went to the south side we saw completely different looks, we saw students with long hair

Hmm

Ha

Aha

And they started telling us you are square

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) meaning, you are nerd

Aha

Engineering and science students most of them stayed detached during the first year

Hmm

And then when we started seeing eng - engineering students, during the last four or five years, we started noticing that their hair got longer

(Alali laughs)

So, we we did the same thing, I mean by the time I graduated, we went through all the experiments, the psychedelics, who went to San Francisco, the hippies, all these movements in a year, in one year the the cultural appearance in America has changed, and when you go anywhere, New York or Boston, and tell them, I am from Berkeley

Ohh

They look at you with awe, because for them, Berkeley was the center of the world

Wow

Not for science, it become the center of the world for movements

For movements yes

For change, students’ movements, change and politics

Hmm

I mean even the the the the those who led – the black panther emerged from the, the black movement, black panther all emerged from there

Yes

From Berkeley or from Oakland or from San Francisco, rock music, psyd - psychedelic music, hippies, and drugs

Hmm

All these things came out of Berkeley and San Francisco, so we were lucky in a sense that we lived through this period, and at the same time we were not harmed by it

Yes

Because we were relatively prepared to we deal with it with passion, but - not go all the way

Hmm

Of course, those who were with me at that time, in addition the ones I mentioned, came later in 64 and 65, for example Kutayba Alghanim.

Hmm

I believe Kutayba came in 65 and I was a graduate student, Bassam Alghanim, may God have mercy on him, Alsaqer, Wael Alshaye and Alshaye was in - Wael studied at Berkeley, but Alshaye studied at San Francisco State, Khaled Alateeqi, so the whole state was attracting Kuwaiti students because of what they hear about it

Yes

And those who cannot make it at Berkeley they go to the universities around it

Yes

San Francisco State, San Jose State, the junior colleges, in my first year at Berkeley there weren’t – only a small number of students graduated before me, you can count them on one hand

Hmm

Abdulrahman Alghunaim graduated before I did, Khaled Alasfour I mentioned already aa Alhumaizi, Jassim – Jassim didn't finish at Berkeley, he went to San Francisco, aa there were about, possibly no more than – Fahad Alhasawi

That was in the first year

We didn’t coincide, they graduated already

Yes

But I heard - I mean, some of them I met during the first year. They said they graduated, but they were finishing their papers. Of course, I entered the third year.

And later aa were there -

And later

Second year you weren’t there? aa

I didn’t – finish senior year

Hmm

I graduated, I was 4 point student and I got awards, I got the best electrical engineer student

Hmm

And I got Phi Beta Kappa aa so when I wanted to do my graduate studies I considered physics, I was called by the electrical professor named English – I have done in my senior here a project with him

Hmm

A small research project, he called on me and asked what are planning to do? Graduate studies? I said yes

Ahh

He asked do you want to join me? Enroll in electrical? we don’t usually enroll our bachelor students in our graduate degrees and prefer that they go elsewhere but I’d like if you are interested, we can work, I told him I wasn’t interested in electrical

Hmm

Just like I have told you - he asked what are you planning on studying? I told him, physics or engineering. He told me we have a very good physics if you want, I mean, why not, but if you are interested, let me know. He told me - advise me. He told me you could you could go to nuclear engineering it's still in the engineering it may be easier for you and you do research, physics research, and I asked other people who gave me the same advice. They told me go- go sea the nuclear, they have reactor, reactor research, in a new building and - I went to physics, they told me apply to the physics department, I didn't get encouragement

Hmm

When I went to nuclear engineering, it's a small department they had a small reactor for research, they are applied physics, I saw Hans Marc, head of the department, brilliant.

Hmm

He met me and welcomed me, and and, and said to me: We will take you. We will take you. But you need to apply and

Yes

It looks from your record, that was before - before I graduated, in - and he said to me, do you have a scholarship? I told him, I, I would like to go and get a scholarship from Kuwait, but I am not so sure I will get it. He said it wouldn’t be a problem if – just stay with us for the first year and settle your issues

Hmm

And then, if you did well, we will give you an assistantship, research assistantship to continue. Anyway, I finished my papers, I even had to take a summer session, I was a 4 point student. I took on the first year, I was missing few courses, so I took a music class and sport class., I was one unit short of graduating

Aha

02: 56: 00

So anyway, I finished and went to New York

Hmm aa since you brought up New York, you said you were there every week or every two weeks -

Every three weeks, I used to go to New York, not just to visit the cultural office, but also go to the Arab students Office – during my last year I was the vice president

Yes you weren’t aa

I was attending meetings

(Alali laughs)

And fight, the the the president president of the - the president of the council, may God have mercy on him, Osama Albaz, maybe you’ve heard of Osama Albaz, the advisor to the President of the Republic of Egypt, for twenty thirty years.

Hmm

Al Sadat advisor and the advisor of aa aaa Hosni Mubarak

Hmm

We had an Egyptian group - Ismail Siraj al-Din who was in charge - Ismail Siraj al-Din was in charge of Boston, not the national, Ismail is brilliant. He was at the World Bank, he became v - vice vice president, and then he became the director of the Alexandria Library for a long time. Anyway - I mean, I developed relationships with many Arabs-

Where was

Distinguished

The headquarters of the – where was the center

Our center in New York was in Harlem, (Shihab El-Din laughs) in Harlem in a rundown office, and - during the summer in which I studied - no, when I finished, I graduated and went to New York, they asked me to spend one month managing the office

In Harlem

In Harlem I lived in an apartment close to - I subleased and there were cockroaches, noisy, noisy, I mean - and I cannot go out after 7 o'clock, it's very dangerous, but of course it's cheap and close to Columbia that's why I took it because it's next to Colombia, there were Arab students at Colombia aaa so it wasn't an office to write home about

(Alali laughs)

Of course, our cultural office was in Rockefeller's, notice the contrast, the Kuwait Cultural Office in Rockefeller Plaza, and this is the office of the Organization of Arab Students, - it does not exist anymore

Ahh

After 67

Ohhh

It broke up, Kuwaitis, Egyptians, Lebanese and so - aa when I finished - during the period when I finished and went to this office in New York, and then I was in the cultural office to finish my papers, I told Master, the office manager was an American named Lee Master – all the Kuwaiti who studied in America up to 70 know him or – yes, I mean he was the office manager – or before seventy, the manager of the cultural office since the fifties, all the Kuwaitis who studied in America know him and love him because he was really aa taking care of the students and - when I went to him for the last time and was about to travel - I explained to him my situation already and told him I was going to Kuwait to get a scholarship, I enrolled in the university and got an admission to study nuclear engineering, he told me there were two Kuwaitis from a new oil company, new oil company in Kuwait

Hmm

They are looking for Kuwaiti engineers who graduated from America for a project, why don’t you meet them, I told him I was – I was enrolled

Hmm

To study nuclear, and was not considering oil

(Alali laughs)

He told me it’s a new company and they want - we gave them your name on the top of the list, they requested a list of Kuwaiti engineering graduates, we gave them a list and your name was on top of the list and we setup a meeting for you

(Alali laughs)

While you’re in New Yok, you don’t have to go anywhere else, you are already in New York, I said ok. I met them, one of the most amazing meetings that affected my life

Hmm

Ali Alradwan

Hmm

Mr. Ali Alradwan, he is a lawyer

Hmm

I knew him from Egypt, not because I met him, but because he was an Arab nationalist

Hmm

It was long before we were there

Yes

He was known to be a supporter of Arab nationalists and had a unique character, and in sixty-one after the independence, he became the Secretary of the National Assembly

Hmm

The first constituent assembly, and also, since he is a lawyer, they appointed him as the Secretary of the National Assembly

Hmm

At that time, it was an important position. At that time, it was a powerful position. Anyway, the second was aa Yousef Ibrahim Alghanim

Hmm

May God have mercy on him, Yousef has passed away – Ali Alradwan is still alive, I met him one or two weeks ago, and he’s a friend, we developed a life-long friendship

Yes

Aa I met them, and they explained to me, they said we have a new oil company, 50% owned by the private sector, 50% owned by the government, I think the government was 51 and the private sector was 49

Yes

And that we have - cont - we signed a contract with a very top of the line modern refinery in - Chevron, California, to build it, and it's a very new technology and we are looking for bright young engineers. I said it’s looks nice, but I am not considering – working as an engineer in – in an oil refinery, I am planning on studying physics, or engineering physics or nuclear engineering and I have a college admission

Hmm

And I am going to Kuwait to get a scholarship

Hmm

They said work with us for one to two months and we will give you a scholarship

Wow

I told them I don’t want to study petroleum. I don’t want you to send me on a scholarship to study petroleum, they told me you can study whatever you like

(Alali laughs)

I swear to God, they told me to study whatever I wanted, if we don’t benefit from you, Kuwait will benefit from you

Wow

That was in July or August 1965

Hmm

August must've been early August 1965. I told them, ok, I'm going back to Kuwait. I'll see what the Ministry of Education has to offer, If I get a scholarship from the Ministry of Education, that would be better

Aha

To get a scholarship from the Ministry of Education

Hmm

Indeed, I came to Kuwait and went to the ministry with my papers and applied, I was confident, I was a 4 point

Huh

And I had an admission and everything. They said well, excellent, but we do not have a scholarship system for those who with a bachelor’s degree except through Kuwait University, which was then under establishment and will start in 1966

Hmm

Meaning wait for a year until the university starts teaching and you can join as a teaching assistant. I mean, we will arrange for you to work at the university with the formation team or wait, I don't remember exactly what they said and then, you can take a scholarship, I told them, no, no no that won’t be suitable for me

Hmm

So I met with Ali Alradwan and Yousef Ibrahim Alghanim in their office in Kuwait City close to the stock exchange

hmm

You know where the central bank is? The old one not the new one, there was a modern small building at that time Kuwait National - KNPC

Hmm

KNPC’s headquarter. I went and met them, and they welcomed me - and I reminded them of what we discussed, and they said we haven’t changed our mind

Huh

Join us as an employee and work with us in Shuaiba for one month

Aha

Work for only one month

(Alali laughs)

And then we will give you a scholarship, without any complications, I worked with them, I went to Shuaiba

How was the the building in Shuaiba or how was the -

Shuaiba? There were temporary metal structures because they were building the refinery

Hmm

There was a Norwegian man, he was the project manager, I sat with him, aa he told me about the refinery and why it's top of the line and I told him I am going to study nuclear engineering and he said we can make use of it, any engineering go and do PhD

Ohh

It's okay and Chevron is close by, visit Chevron, and when we are there, we can meet

And did you have an interest in

No

(Alali laughs)

I didn’t have an inte (Shihab-Eldin laughs) honestly, I didn’t have any interest, my interest at that time was science

Hmm

I mean, I was so focused on science, especially after the two years at Berkeley, which was a contrast to Egypt

Yes

The professors who taught me –the libraries

Yes

The laboratories and Noble prizes that were given. I did a small little project on a semiconductor. If I would have stayed, I don't know, I might have been in Silicon Valley because Silicon Valley came out of Berkeley

Yes

Aa what’s his name Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

Yes

The Apple guy, and all of them, many famous names were my classmates at Berkeley

Ooh

In - engineering

Yes

But, of course, I didn't know about them until later on when - they became famous - and I read that they were at Berkeley during the same period that, I told that - my name is in the is in the department they have a list of the best student every year

Ohh

So in 1965 you can see my name

(Alali laughs)

In electrical engineering

Great

Yes, of course you can see other names and some of them they did great and few dropped out and did good like Steve Jobs

(Alali laughs)

Who established Apple, he dropped out but was – anyway

Oh so when you went back to Kuwait aa what was aa your family’s opinion about doing your graduate studies or staying in Kuwait? What was their impression of

Honestly my father - my father wanted me to stay

Hmm

He used to tell me what is it with you and the atom - and from the start he was not enthusiastic about me studying the atom, he told me Kuwait is an oil country and and and and and they want you aa you can have a future in oil

Yes

And and and and you are an engineer and Sheikh Saad was always asking me about you, because he, God have mercy on is soul, had a good relationship with the Sheikh

Yes

He worked directly, I told you when he came back - Sheikh Saad, God rest his soul, is always asking me about you - and and and and and I told him dad I already enrolled

Hmm

And and the company was giving me a scholarship and I’m going

Did you experience a culture shock when you came back to Kuwait after -

65 no

Berkeley?

No in 65 I didn’t because I didn’t stay for long

Hmm

What I faced was, I mean I was wearing bell bottom, long hair

Ahh

We went – we went to a gathering where - students who studied in America and were affected by the movement started to form gatherings

hmm

The culture and the revolution

Hmm

Hippies and such, gatherings started to form in few places, one of them was in Althunayan Alghanim building

Hmm

There was a Najat Sultan exhibition, she had a gallery, God rest her soul

Hmm

So we used to gather there or go to her house

Nice

They had parties so we were kind of coalescing

Hmm

With each other

Yes

Even more

And you went back to the same same university in aa

Same university same – in nuclear engineering

Yes

Instead of electrical, I did nuclear, and I did extremely well, of course, 67, the war started and the defeat and there was a setback in the Arab world and it - it affected all of us, so we started thinking about why we were wrong why didn't we see it

Yes

I mean we -

How was the aa -

I -

The students I mean, how were they after -

The students were shock, all of us were shock I mean aa I would say 90% were shocked because we didn't expect how it ended quickly and we were fed lies obviously

Yes

and and we believed some of it most of us believed them. - Why did we believe? We believed because we wanted something so you know and that was lesson for us, and for me especially, that you have to scrutinize everything

Hmm

Politically, culturally, everything don’t don’t – don’t believe everything you hear, examine the issue don’t – don’t be tempted by what you want to believe, because you want, because we wanted an Arab union and believed it could happen

Yes yes

Because we supported supported the Palestinian cause, so we believed

Hmm

You know that was the lesson that we learned, I think being at Berkeley - Berkeley was the opposite, they were criticizing everything in society, everything - everything

Hmm

For yourself don't be inhibited not socially, not politically, not culturally do whatever you think it right even psychedelics, music everything, you try it so that was the counter culture

Yes

03: 08: 55

Of course, we were the least affected by this in engineering and physicists but it was there, so we learned from it anyway so

So – what happened to aa aa the the Arab Students -

Yes, when this happened, the Arab students were divided

Hmm

The organization didn’t last long in New York, and we started seeing Egyptian students union, and Kuwaiti students union, the union of – Islamic students, the Islamic movement became more powerful in a tremendous way because the others were bankrupt

Hmm

And not – I mean they were not bankrupt materially; they were bankrupt intellectually… They - whatever they were talking about proved to be mostly wrong

Hmm

I mean most of what was said became - not true

Yes

The outcomes were very disappointing, and and and therefore - there was self-searching, and divisions took place and it became irreversible. Of course, it was a reflection of what was happening in the Arab world, meaning the fragmentation that had occurred in the Arab world, which reflected on the students’ reality in America and England, as well as the Arab students unions that existed in Europe - when we were meeting for the Arab Students Union, in 66 for example, I attended 65, 64, they invited ministers, Arab prime ministers to deliver speeches, from all countries, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, so it was a very important organization, and then it perished

As for the Palestinian cause after the end of the the organizations, was it -

Yes the – I mean, I believe what happened, the Arab nationalists withdrew, they were no longer the Arab nationalists, they were called the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine

Hmm

I don’t know, it became - one continued to support but with much more, I mean, not with - I remember the Egyptians after 67 began to organize themselves to regain Sinai, I mean the - the main issues have changed

Yes

The main issue was no longer what everyone used to gather around, aa Sadat

Hmm

After 71 a anyway, I mean, it was clear that an era has ended

Yes, but were you part of, for example, another organization -

No

After after this?

No no no, I left I, politically I was never heavily b - I was not an organizer I was a supporter

Yes

I mean when – when I ran in the Arab nationalist list, I was a friend I was not organized

Yes

Politically, I am not affiliated with anyone, but I believed in their ideas and the things they voiced

Or for example any aa for example other student group aa nonpolitical for example, in a certain field - in other fields, did you join any other group or -

I started to be more interested in sports

Hmm

We organized football teams for Arab students

(Alali laughs)

Volleyball and played in matches so I started to develop an interest in -

Through the university or -

There was a chapter at the university, and we created an Arab students football team, I created it, and then we join a league in San Francisco within the 4th division, 3rd division, 2nd division, 1st division, and we had, the person that I remember the most – Dr. Musaed Alharoun remembers this

Hmm

Because he studied in San Francisco, he reminds me of this, he’s of course, he was doing his PhD in physical education

Wow

He was a first-class athlete, not like us amateurs, and -

(Alali laughs)

He joined our team, and he was a core player in the team, and he always reminds me of it. Dr. Musaad Alharoun. He then became Minister of Education and Cultural Attaché. When I see him, he reminds me of the football days at –

(Alali laughs)

At Berkeley - we gathered - organized ourselves in a league, communities league

Hmm

Football wasn’t popular in America, so the people who played football outside of high school, school

Soccer not football

Soccer yes, the people who play it were the communities from Latin American and the Europeans. We had a team once called Afro Asian. We had two types of teams, teams at Berkeley

Hmm

Within the university intramural and I was in the Afro Asian team

Hmm

And we had a team called Arab Club

Hmm

A grocery owner in San Francisco put this team together, he loved football and spent money on it, and that's why we did well, reaching 4th division, 3rd division, and then when we got to 2nd division to see our games you have to pay

Ohh

One, one dollar to pay - to pay for the referee

(Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs) and who paid? Our friends

Yes

50 people 100 people to pay for the referee’s salary, Musaed remembers this very well, so this was what I did, of course, I was I was very active scientifically

Hmm

Publishing

What are some of the projects you have done during this period?

In Science?

In science

I - I was, I was focused on my thesis

Hmm

I became very fascinated by what my thesis advisor was doing which was to separate newly identified isotopes using some techniques to study their characteristics and to see if there are phenomena in nuclear physics, my thesis was nuclear physics although I was

Who was the -

Although I was, although I was studying in – in engineering I I what fascinated me is that I was using a research reactor

Hmm

So I would be- I would be the one who use it by myself almost it's a research - a huge one mega watt research reactor we we we send the samples inside the reactor, aaa using pressure, air pressure and then it comes into a hood, sh - lead shield and then chemically we separate and then we take it and study it, measure it and then I got fascinated with computers because computers were coming up on the scene

Yeah

That times and programming I learned programming Fortran to do the analysis and then I used to go up the hill where the national laboratory is, there is – in Berkeley there is a national laboratory during the Second World War where the cyclotrons were used as part of the Manhattan project to develop the nuclear weapons, so there is a whole big laboratory up on the hill that has cyclotrons and top physicists looking for new elements and looking for new phenomena so I was really fascinated by all of these and I started - I couldn't work before getting my PhD with other research groups but I started attend meetings met many people and learned from them and so really it it I mean, I was I was I was so immersed in my field and learning and discovering and it was so huge because it was not small department

Yes

The national laboratory sitting right up the hill, I dreamed working there and I ended the working there for 5 years

But what

Later on

How did you feel aaa moving from Cairo, and you said that the resources were very limited -

Yes, this was

The laboratories

This was, this was, as I told you, this was transformative

Hmm

So, when they talked to me and asked me to study oil, I said

(Alali laughs)

I couldn’t be further away from oil

Ohh

I I am in the middle of where the frontier of science, now of course I was not aware that there are, there are other frontiers of science in Berkeley that being covered in electrical engineering that I turned it down when professor English talked to me, I could have gone into semiconductors and computers, you know because computers were being developed by the electrical engineering department , the name later became electrical and computer science EECS and mathematics and life science, there were breakthroughs being made in the life science but I was not very interested in them student although I read a little bit but I was really focused on new elements, discovering new metals I dreamed of being part of a team that will discover and new element and maybe name it after Kuwait

Ooh

You know because a lot of the new elements are called Californium Berkelium you know but – some things are called after people for example aaa Cyborg aaa Lawrence Lawrencium

Amazing

So you know this, there was a strong competition between America and Russia on who discovers a new elements are Berkeley or Dubna new and in Russia so it was really and the people who visited me from Kuwait they were so impressed I took them to see the cyclotrons

Who visited you?

Many visited from aaa - Ali Alradwan visited me once aaaa from – Altaf Sultan I remember visited me

Aha

Altaf aa Fuad Almulla’s wife, God have mercy on him, Najat Sultan

Ohh

Aaa honestly many visited me, I had a small car when I was a graduate student, Triumph car with top down

Ahh (Alali laughs)

Some of them, sorry to say but they couldn't fit from the door so I had to jump them

Yeah (Alali laughs)

(Shihab-Eldin laughs)

I mean because of size

Yeah

But it was fun, I had a Mustang later on actually when I - when I worked I had the Triumph, when I was a graduate, no I had a Mustang

Did you travel -

Yes

During this period in America?

I travelled a lot aa during graduate school, I mean I mostly visited aaa the wilderness

Hmm

Around Sierra Nevada, Lake Tahoe, we were many

Hmm

Aa Kuwaitis, we enjoyed Kuwaiti gatherings - aa I told you about Ali Al Khalifa 4- 64

Hmm

And then, may God have mercy on him, Wael and Kutayba Alghanim. We used to - we use to go - you know picnics or camping or in the National Parks - swimming. Once they rented, they called it a house houseboat in Lake Shasta. We stayed for few days. I have nice pictures with them.

Hmm

I mean that was the - the thing, aa recreationally was travelling within the United States, visiting national parks I started loving the mountains more

Hmm

Lake Tahoe, we used to go as a large Kuwaiti group, it took about three hours, and then gather and barbeque

(Alali laughs)

And make Kuwaiti dishes

How many years aa did you study for the master’s degree aa?

Master’s and PhD in five years

The master’s was?

The first two years I was doing my master’s and then I did my PhD - I was originally enrolled as a PhD student

Ohh

So only

And the scholarship was for the master’s or?

For five years, no no, they told me to go get – I enrolled as a PhD student, and told me to

Ohh

I mean I can’t – forget, I reminded Ali Alradwan, I saw him two weeks ago, and I always mention it I mention it in my conversations with – when I was in the Foundation, and the young people came in and complained about bureaucratic hurdles

Hmm

I tell them about how Kuwait was like

Yes

And how it became, I mean I have a personal experience

Hmm

It’s still unsolved, my daughter

Hmm

I told you - I told you about her, my daughter studied on a scholarship, I was a Kuwaiti diplomate in Cairo

Hmm

And in Vienna, and diplomates’ children are eligible for scholarships, and she already got hers – before I became a diplomate, got the scholarship on merit

Hmm

And she transferred, to study at Brown

Ah

At Brown University and during the last year she changed from civil engineering to architectural studies without telling them, taking permission and then when the cultural office knew, they said that is not permitted, repeat academic year and remain in civil engineering, she said no – I do not want this degree anymore, and told her that the program she studied at Brown is not recognized

In Brown

Yes, until today, she stayed in America -

Hmm

We tried to convince them many times to certify her degree - and she taught after graduation, she stayed for one, and then she studied at Columbia

Oh wow

Got her master’s in architecture from Columbia, it’s top school

Yes

They won’t certify her master’s because they don’t recognize her bachelor’s degree, until today, I’m trying so that one day my daughter might come back but

Yes

She of course, is living in American now, she got married and had a daughter, but I’m telling you this is on the side, so I always remind the young people who get frustrated sometime, remind them, and tell them Kuwait wasn’t like this

Yes

We had people who had vision

Yes

I mean it is what Yousef Ibrahim, God have mercy on him, and Ali Alradwan told me study whatever you want, if we don’t benefit from you

Yes

Kuwait will benefit from you, that was what they told me

Hmm

And indeed, when the days went by, I’ll tell you the story that took place - the days went on – I will finish the story - but now I was done

Done with the master’s and

Done with master’s and done with the PhD

What did you major in - or your PhD thesis?

It was about the study of short-lived delayed neutron emitters

Hmm

It was very aa specific, the purpose was to study the competition by delayed neutron emissions and the Gama Ray and the Beta Ray because delayed neutron emissions are very important in the control of reactors, thermal reactors, very important so the idea was trying to understand the fundamentals by studying certain important delayed neutrons emitters known and study the details of the competition by identifying those Gama rays on the level schemes. I mean it's, it was interesting and I added experimental work, theoretical work trying to explain the observation

When it came to studying, did the academic pressure differ from aa for example, undergrad to -

Yes of course

For example, the nature of the the study or work?

Of course, it was different, the the graduate students are different

Hmm

The the graduate students you have a closer relation to Berkeley

Hmm

The the the graduate students, you're working with two or three professors not only your professor. it's more like friendly and then I chose to study with a professor I was the first PhD student with him

Ohh

He was about my age

(Alali laughs)

Five years older than me

Yes

Or four years, we became lifelong friends, he passed away five years ago, we became lifelong friends, our families I’ll explain to you, he is Jewish

Hmm

But liberal

Hmm

And very - I learned a lot of science from him, and I learned other things as well

Aa what was his name?

Stan Brossen, Stanley Brossen, his father was from New York, he was an electrician immigrant, they were the Jews that came as immigrant and

Hmm

He studied at MIT and they went to Michigan and then Berkeley aaa now the reason I worked with him because he was doing physics

Aha

Not nuclear

Aha

And he was very exciting person he was young

Yeah