Interview with Abdulatif Al-Hamad

- Good morning, aaa today is aaa the 21st of February 2021, today is Sunday. Aaa at the house of Mr. Abdul Lateef Al Hamad. Aaa I am Reem Al Hajri, hello and welcome Sir. Aaa will you begin with introducing yourself, please?

- In In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful, I am Abdulatif Yousef Al Hamad, born in Kuwait, in Qebla, in 1937, that was a long long time ago, as you can see. I studied at the Qeblia, the Qeblia school for the first years, in the elementary, kindergarten and elementary stages then moved to Victoria College in Alexandria for the sec- the intermediate and secondary stages. I graduated from Victoria College and joined the American University, in Cairo for two years then moved to America, to join Claremont, I studied at Claremont and graduated from Claremont in 1960. I then went to Harvard Graduate School in 1961 and spent a year and a half there. Then joined the Kuwait delegation at the United Nations when Kuwait's request to join the United Nations - after Abdul Kareem cla - aaa I forget his last name, Abdul Kareem aaa said that Kuwait was a part of Iraq and there were attempts to prove that Kuwait had been independent since 1961. I've kept working since 1961 until three months ago. I worked at the Kuwait Fund then at the minist - I was the Minister of Finance and Planning, then the Chairman and General Manager of the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development between 1985 and 2020.

- God bless, a rich record.

- A full introduction, I think.

- Yes, yes, aaa I'd like now to move to telling me about your childhood, particularly the house where you grew up aa the people there, how it looked like and all its features.

- Of course I grew up in a family home, as it was usual back then, where all the family lived in one house so most of my uncles, their wives and children lived with us in the same house but they mostly stayed away, traveling for work, whether in India or in Africa or in Yemen and my father was responsible for the house, throughout the years of being aware of his life so we lived in Qebla, the Qebla neighborhood and near us lived our neighbors, the families of Alsaqer, Albader, Albarjjas and other noble Kuwaiti families and Almarzooq, and it was - and Albaher, those were the families around us, in the area and the location of our house was considered the south part of the Kuwait Museum, which Iraq destroyed during the occupation.

- Aaa tell me about your childhood, aa what do you remember about it, what was the first childhood memory you remember?

- That we went to school on foot, from Qebla to Al Sayhed, the Ministry of Education was there at the time, we went in the morning and went home, at noon for lunch then we went back for an afternoon school session, it was a long process for us, to be at school for the whole day. That's one of my most important memories. At the time schools were somewhat primitive but the process of organizing education, at the time, hadn't followed the modern style yet and there were no university or post graduate studies, at the time, in Kuwait.

- Aaa did you- you mentioned that you went to school on foot, was that with family members or with a group of your friends from the neighborhood aaa what was the routine?

- No, we were boys, more than anything else, I used to go alone sometimes and sometimes with others from- and sometimes one of the boys went with us, to accompany us to school because we were young kids at the time.

- Right, and the school, I'd like to focus on it more. What was the school system like? You mentioned that there were aaa two sessions; in the morning and in the afternoon aaa I'd like you to tell me more about the school system, the teachers, their nationalities and so on.

- Most of the -- most - all the teachers, except one or two, were Kuwaitis, among those I remember Ibrahim Abdul Malek, Abdul Azeez Al Adsani, he was the principal, may God rest his soul, Abdul Malek Al Saleh, may God rest his soul, one of the best and prominent figures, he died while being the principal of the school. That day, I remember, in the morning they told us that the principal had passed away, we were kids, how he could die, we didn't understand that. With us were Mulla Othman, may God rest his soul, if he's dead, Abdul Rahman Al Di'aij, Mulla Abdul Aziz Al Adsani, aaa Saleh Shihab, Khaled Al Gharaballi and a number of teachers, all of them were well known Kuwaiti figures, you'd know from the names that they are from deeply rooted Kuwaiti families and they were the majority among teachers there and the principal, as I mentioned, was Abdul Malek Al Saleh and when he died we had an Egyptian principal so they went on after that, then, after 4th grade elementary I moved to Victoria in 1949.

- Aaa and as for the subjects taught, at schools back then, aa what subjects do you remember and what was your personal favorite subject?

- It was difficult to determine the personal favorite subject but we studied s - religion, math, Arabic and English, it was very simple English, at the time, and sports, of course, a variety of exercises and we always planted, at the school yard, we learned the importance of farming, those were things related to the stage of childhood and the stage of pre-elementary school.

- Aa I'd like to go back a little bit to the family home aa, tell me more about it, aa what was - what were the activities you did at home, for instance, after coming back from school? Aa what were the house roles of everyone and so on? - Aa I didn't have a role other than to concentrate on studying and doing homework, we wrote our daily homework during the day and in the early evening and we went to sleep early to get up early and go to school because schools started early at the time.

- How many were the family members, your own family, how many brothers and sisters and what was your position among them?

- I was the third son with three brothers after me, so we were seven at the time. Of course, my father was the one living in Kuwait, most of my cousins were outside Kuwait, my cousins were outside Kuwait whether in Iraq, as I mentioned, or in Yemen or in India where the family business extended to those regions.

- Aa and as for your friendships - at the stage of....

- The mother of everyone was our great grandmother, she was the head of the family and the one controlling the family affairs, my father obeyed her blindly and respected her very much.

- Aaa, nice, since you mentioned your aa grandmother aa I'd like you to tell me about the roles of women too, like your grandmother and your mother, aa their roles, in the house, and what duties they had?

- My mother was responsible for running the house and my elder sister was responsible for looking after my grandmother. The grandmother was the head of the family, back then, but she was old and sick, at the time, and my sister had no direct activity except looking after her. As for my mother a she was in charge of tidying the house, the food and all the house activities, following up on the house chores and the work of the maids and their duties, may God rest the souls of everyone.

- Amen aa I'd like you to tell me also about the kids' activities, in the neighborhood for example, the types of games you played, as children at the time, aaa your friends, how many were they and what was the relationship between you like?

- We mostly spent most of the time inside the house, we were not allowed to roam the streets, our activities outside the house were too few and it wasn't- I don't remember any of the neighbors' kids having a relationship or friendship with us because there were no kids our age and we were so young at the time so I mean we were heavily protected by keeping us playing inside the house.

- Aa what types of games did you play at home?

- There was nothing specific, I mean I loved reading so I used to read a lot till I learned reading, at first I read most of the Arabic books about heritage, history and literature, )One Thousand and One Nights (, the books of Najeeb Mahfouz and others in my childhood.

- Nice aa you talked about studying at the Qeblia school then moving aa moving to Victoria aa what was the reason for that move? Will you tell me about that period?

- A number of Kuwaiti families' children moved to Victoria, at that period, upon a recommendation by the British Consulate, at the time, because education there was very distinguished so I moved there for the first grade elementary, that was the first class we moved to and our English wasn't that good, it was very simple so in the first year they concentrated on teaching us the English language so as to communicate with the other students and understand the lessons, which were presented to us in English and there was no Arabic as an additional language so I was lucky to have started learning Arabic at the Qeblia school so I was good at Arabic when I went to Victoria because teaching Arabic was limited there as the concentration there was, as it is now in most foreign universities and schools, on the language of the country that those school represent, and we were a number of Kuwaitis, Kuwaiti young people, maybe 25 boys from the families sent to Victoria. I was the first - I was among the first who went there, the first to go was Bader Al Mulla, may God rest his soul, and we followed him, as a second stage and with us was Ali - Muhammed Thinayyan Al Ghanem then my brothers and cousins followed us, I remember, for example, that to go to Victoria we went to Basra, by car and from Basra by plane, all by myself, a little boy, 14, 12, 13,14 years old, on a plane to Cairo. I arrived at Cairo at dawn and there was no one to meet me so the plane, aa the management of the pla - the airlines drove me to the Kuwait House in Cairo and at the Kuwait House they called my brother, who was- my elder brother was studying at Cairo University so he came and took me and I stayed with him for a few days before going to Victoria, in Alexandria and to a private school, during the summer, to learn English then move to Victoria, as a school, I continued in Victoria from 1949 to around 1956.

- Aaa I'd like to concentrate, before we go to Victoria, on the boarding school, where you stayed for some time to learn English, were you the only Kuwaiti there or was there a group with you?

- There was a very small group with us, there was a group from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, we were a consistent group and it was a small school, I mean there wasn't a very big number and we spent about two months there, in the summer. Then we moved to Victoria, it was a waiting period more than anything else.

- Was that a part of the program or the scholarship or the recommendation to Victoria school or was it something aa I mean a personal decision by the families to send you to those schools?

- That was the arrangement followed, for the students who went to Victoria, we didn't go there on a scholarship or a mission, we went at the expense of our families, the families paid for the education costs in Victoria then all my cousins, my younger brothers and cousins joined us when they were old enough to travel.

- What were your most prominent memories, at that stage, I mean at school and its events? For sure many things happened.

- It was a boarding school, of course and it had a huge mix of students from Libya, from Iraq, from Sudan, from Jordan, from Kuwait of course and from Saudi Arabia so it was a huge mix and I came to know- and from Egypt of course, the children of big families, that sent them and there were also the children of foreign communities, for example I recall the Bulgarians and the Hungarians, who got evicted, because of the wars or revolutions that broke out in their countries, their children came to the school, so it was a community school, an international community indeed and among the figures that visited us was Mountbatten, who came to the school and gave a speech there and there was a number of communications with others from other countries. Many leaders graduated from that school, including, for instance, King Husain and other than King Husain, of the leaders, Al Khashikjji, the sons of Khashikjji and others, all of them went to Victoria and Victoria had students like Al Shalhi, the sons of Al Muntaser from Egypt, from Libya, the children of Egypt, the sons of the big families in Egypt and we stayed at the school, lived in the school and studied at the school.

- As for life at school, will you to tell me more about, for example, the places where you slept, the places dedicated for activities and the classrooms themselves?

- The school was so huge and had three sections; the section for accommodation, that was long dormitories where every 30 students slept in every dormitory, another section for the classrooms and the library and that was the academic section and the third section was for the playgrounds of football, tennis, swimming and gymnastics and the school was distinguished in all those sections at the time. We played sports as a part of our commitment and duty, I mean it was one of the duties we were asked for and we practiced other activities too, we trained and there were the scouts' team and teams for football, cricket and tennis and those were- and swimming.

- Were you, personally, in one of those teams or didn't...

- Just the scouts.

- The scouts.

- Yes, but we played football or cricket as a part of our commitment, I wasn't that good at sports.

- Aaa and as for the teachers, were they of different nationalities or only Egyptians?

- No, the teachers were English and as for the Arabic language it was taught by Egyptians and some foreigners, from the foreign communities, were with us teaching some other subjects, like math and others while the curricula of the school came from Oxford, Cambridge, the board of for examination and the exams were held annually and the results were sent- the exam papers, the final exams, were sent to that board, graded there and the final results came from Oxford, Cambridge for the students, who succeeded, to apply for the foreign and Egyptian universities.

- And as for the holidays, it sure was a boarding school but you certainly had vacations, aa what activities did you do and did you spend your vacations in Egypt or you returned to Kuwait? Aa what were they like?

- First of all the vacations were so limited, there were, for instance, the long holidays, the Christmas holiday and the new year holiday and on those they took us to Cairo to see the Kuwaiti guys there, at the Kuwait House, that was a part and we spent the summer holidays at the first school, the one I mentioned earlier, as we had to spend two years before we got to go back to our families in Kuwait so it was a very long period of estrangement and of course traveling, at the time, wasn't that easy, it was so difficult to travel from Kuwait to Egypt but the concentration was on staying in Egypt, as long as possible, to perfect the language and to study.

- Aa you mentioned the Kuwait House, in Egypt, will you tell me more about it? What was the nature of that house and what were the activities they provided for the students in Kuwait and--?

- The Kuwait House was the residence headquarters of the Kuwaiti students, who studied in Egypt, whether at universities or at schools in Egypt, all of them stayed there, the students of the Kuwaiti missions, it was a residence headquarters and a place to study as well, I mean their homework and a residence from which they went to their schools or to their univ... their lectures at the universities, of course we were not a part of that because we stayed - they housed us in one of the cheap hotels in Cairo and we didn't do any activities inside the Kuwait House.

- Aaa what were your most prominent personal memories aa in that period? I mean a funny situation or or a memory that you feel you still remember from that time.

- I knew a lot of young people, for example my arch friend, the closest, may God rest his soul, Omar Al Muntaser, who later on became the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Libya, he was the fat one and I was thin so they nicknamed us Abbott and Costello, the two famous cinema figures, the fat and the thin, I mean that was one of the things back then, and of course we cooperated and- competed with all the nationalities there, the school had a huge internal part, a big part and another part half internal and half external, the students who came, from home, to study left in the evening but our concentration was on the internal, the boarding students were in touch with one another, our rules were almost military, at 7:00 the bell rang for breakfast, the second bell rang at 7:05 and if you didn't go - within 5 minutes you wouldn't get breakfast. At 12 the bell rang for lunch at 12:05 and the same thing happened and for dinner too, then the time for doing our homework, we went to classes in silence to do our daily homework.

- Aaa.

- It was - it had a military system more than being- I mean it had the nature of British boarding schools.

- Aaa you mentioned the breakfast time and lunch time so aa I'd like to ask you a question that could be a little bit strange but aaa...

- Yes.

- About the meals served for you, since the administration of the place was aa a foreign administration so were aa the meals presented for you affected by that? Had anything changed for you personally or had you found any difficulty accepting aaa the types of food at first? Particularly that you came from Kuwait and we, we have our dishes, for which we are famous, then you moved aa to that stage.

- We got used to the food first and most of the food was potatoes and meat, potatoes and fish and potatoes and chicken, I mean it was- because when you made meals- meals for a large number of students and at the time the possibilities were so limited - rice was limited so on the days rice was presented it was presented with- with Mulukhiyah, for instance, so we used to say, "Today they mowed the loan, the grass of the playground to make the Mulukhiyah." We made fun of ourselves about that, among ourselves, about that. Of course there was a cafeteria, that opened during certain hours, selling sandwiches, chocolate and so on, it was always crowded at the break time, between classes, to get a share, that's how the situations there were- we ate what came to us and tried to live according to our capabilities, at the time, of course our daily or weekly allowance was very limited, I remember they gave us quarter a pound for the whole week which we used to eat, drink, buy sandwiches, eat chocolate and drink cola at the time.

- Aaa as for the allowance, it sure was included aa in the fees the families paid the school?

- Of course.

- Aaa but as you mentioned that - that you were not the ones handling it directly, but the management gave you the allowance, right?

- Right.

- Aa I just wanted to stress that point aa you mentioned that the school system was a semi military one, but as you were young people, at the time, or even teenagers, and of course you had energy and the naughtiness, for which young people are known, at that period, so what did you do to entertain yourselves, away from studying, and what were the other activities?

- Football and other sports and sometimes swimming because there was an open swimming pool and other boys' activities.

- I'd like to concentrate on those boys' activities, did you, for example, do aaa things that broke the school laws or something similar? I mean were you completely disciplined?

- First the - the system was strict and, the observation was so tight and the observation of the uni - the teachers was so close. For most of the time we were busy studying and the time, in which we played outdoors, was when we had a vacation for a few days and everyone went out of the school, except for the boarding ones among us, who were from very far away countries, so sometimes we spent those vacations at school, at the time, and one tried to entertain oneself, as much as possible, with any of those activities. Of course some students escape, by leaving the school, they escaped and went to the city because the school was too far from the city center, going to the city was by the tram, from the Victoria station to Al Raml station, which was called at the time the main port in - or the main square of the market there, so some students used to escape to there but I didn't do any of those activities unfort - let me say fortunately.

- Aaa and when you left school, with the agreement of the administration, what were the most prominent places you visited at the time?

- Two things we did on Sundays, when we left school as a group; first we went to cinema then we had lunch in Khamees' restaurant - not Khamees mm- I forgot the name of the restaurant, it was a popular restaurant that served rice, okra and so on, popular Arabian meals, and for us that was the maximum luxury back then.

- Do you remember one of the films, you watched at the cinema? And tell me what cinemas were like at the time.

- No, cinemas were distinguished, at the time, in Egypt, and as for the films it's difficult to remember now, they were too many, Ana, an Indian film titled Ana, it was hugely popular and there were so many comedy films, so the names are too many to remember now.

- Aaa and at the transitional period, after Victoria school, aa tell me about the stage when you graduated from school.

- I went to the American University, in Cairo, from 1956 to 1958. In the first year I lived in the students' quarters, inside the university, which is in Taheeer Square, it's well known of course. When the 1956 Suez war broke out, we were in the center of Cairo, at the time, and we saw Abdul Naser going to the Council of Ministers, so close to that area and the crowds cheered supporting him. The city was completely dark and nobody moved because there was a curfew at the time of course. In 1958 one of my teachers said to me, "You'd better go to a university in America," so I applied to a number of universities and was admitted to Claremont University, Men's College as called back then and they call it Claremont now. I moved there from 1985 to 1969 and graduated from Claremont McKenna College, Cum Laude with Honors and was admitted to Harvard, to Stanford and to Berkeley and of course to Claremont Graduate School. My teachers thought that I had tried the east - west side of the United States and I needed to try the west side of - the east side of the United States. They suggested I should go to Harvard, to Oxford, sorry, Harvard so I went to Harvard Graduate School and spent a year and a half there until the second half of the second year when Kuwait was working on joining the United Nations as a member country, after the independence and during the claims of Abdul Kareem Qasem that Kuwait was an extension of Iraq. The delegation, at the time, was made up of Abdul Rahman Al Ateeqi, may God rest his soul, Rashid Al Rashid and Tal'at Al Ghusain, the three of them. Tal'at Al Ghusain then returned to Kuwait, for reasons I don't know of, so Abdul Rahman Al Ateeqi said to me, "You can volunteer with us, to be with us, in the delegation for three months," which were the end of the second term - the first for the university, so I agreed to volunteer and served with them for a period of three months, in the united - the delegation to the United Nations then we returned back to Kuwait for the New Year and Christmas holidays, hoping to go back to the university in early January. At the time, when I returned to Kuwait, I was told that a new organization had been established there called the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development, and I was asked to be one of its staff, so I asked for a vacation, extending my vacation. When we came back to Kuwait, Kuwait had already declared its independence, at the time and the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development was established in 1961 and I was asked to join the staff of the fund so I asked the university to postpone my return to the following year and the university agreed to that considering it'd be beneficial for my studies because I had been studying the international relations, more than anything else and thus I continued with the fund. During that period. Abdul Aziz Al Baher, may God rest his soul, was the general manager of the Kuwait Fund, the first general manager. After two months of running the fund or three months, Abdul Aziz Al Baher resigned so I ask - I tried to go back to the university but I was told that I couldn't leave the fund until a new manager was appointed because there was no - our number was so limited and I think I was the only Kuwaiti, at the time, in the university- in the fund, I went on maintaining the management of the fund as much as possible, during that period, which went on for one, two, three years and I was appointed as the general manager of the fund and didn't go back to the university to get my degree and I was told, by the university, " what you are doing now is more important than the degree which you will get or learn about in a university like Harvard. "

- Aaa you mentioned quite a few points which aa I'd like aa to stop at and go back to.

- Go ahead, please.

- And ask you about more things but aaa let's go back to the beginning aa you graduated from Victoria and joined the university in Cairo.

- Yes.

- Aaa did you go there directly after graduation or did you return to Kuwait, in that period, aaa or was the move direct?

- No, I think I came back, I don't remember but I think I came back to spend the summer in Kuwait then returned to Cairo at the beginning of the school year, which was usually in autumn.

- Aaa tell me about being at at the Cairo University at the time.

- The American University in Cairo?

- Yes, the American University in Cairo

- Yes

- Aa what were your activities as students? We know that in universities the margin aa of freedom, for students, could be broader than that of school students so what were your social and political activities? - First- first I was living, as I mentioned, in the university quarters and our social relations were with the young people with us, it just happened that two of those who were with me in Victoria were also with me at the residence, second, the Kuwaitis, the Kuwaiti guys at the Kuwait House so we were - I used to go to the Kuwaiti guys there for the activities because the Kuwait House turned into something like a club and not just for accommodation because the students began to move to different flats. As for the university, the activities there were - at first I tried to study journalism, more than anything else, so there were attempts to see and visit the journalists and the newspapers, which we could reach or meet the journalists, who came to the university to give lectures, like Mustafa Ameen for example, he was one of those, who came and gave a lecture, he was the Editor in Chief of Akbar Al Youm, he came and gave a lecture. The other activity was acting and I helped with stage operations, the lights etc... for the acting activity done by the students, that's of course besides studying - the concentration on studying and preparing for it more than anything else.

- Aaa you mentioned aaa journalism and acting but aa your major in the university, what was it?

- I was aa planning on studying journalism but I found out, later on, that journalism, there was no major in journalism- a general major more beneficial than being specialized in a certain career.

- And as for the theater, do you remember - did you, I mean, write your own plays or acted out international plays?

- Already written plays like Electra and others and so forth

- Aaa what were the most prominent experiences, through which you went, while you being in the university? I mean a memory you still keep?

- The Sues War, in 1956, and the suffering of people from it, the results it brought about and the explosive political atmosphere, in the region, in Egypt, in Egypt and the region as a whole.

- Did you aa as university students, particularly the American University in Cairo, at the time aa it was known for its activities, so what were the political activities of the students during that period?

- Bear in mind that in that period the American attitude was supportive and neutral, almost supportive to Egypt and consequently there were no enmity for the name of the American University, in that side, so the activity was the same as the general atmosphere, which Egypt lived, regarding France, Britain and Israel, at the time, and we were, of course, influenced by that atmosphere in general.

- Aaa what were the changes imposed on you as students? Did aaa your school system continue as it was? Did any changes take place? And tell me about the psychological side too, for you as students at the time.

- As far as I remember nothing changed, we went on studying as usual but of course the curfew and so on, had its effect then again the general frantic activity, regarding the Sues War, affected the students' activities, in general but there was no specific phenomenon for the students of the American University at the time.

- Aa so you went on with your school activity aa as it was.

- More or less.

- Aaa how did the curfew aa affect the school hours? Were they suitable for the curfew hours or were there problems you faced?

- No, of course sometimes the lights were so limited, considering the fear of air raids, second, moving around, during the night hours was so limited, so there were no problems and fortunately, for those staying at the university, they were not far from the classes but rather near them and near the library while the others took time to come, in the following morning, during the day but in the evening there was no movement.

- Aa you talked about aa your desire to - to move from the American University in Cairo aa to study in the United States aa how did that decision come up and and and what was the mechanism followed, at the at the time? I mean as we know perhaps not so many students went to study in universities unless they were aa unless they had a certain orientation or desire to learn, so what were the mechanisms followed at the time?

- First the move from Cairo to America was upon a recommendation by one of my teachers who said, at the time, "Pardon me for saying this but you are better than the rest of the class so don't waste your time here and go to a better university," so I asked him to give me a list. That was late, near the end of the school year, to give me a list of the names of the universities to which I can write and he gave me a group of universities, all of which were well known colleges and universities in America and all of them were good. When I returned to Kuwait, in summer, I sent to them letters saying that I was a student of so and so and so and that I wished to apply to them. Of course at the time, admissions were over because they end in April instead of being in June- June/July but Claremont - fortunately Rashid Al Rashid graduated, in that year from Claremont Men's College and there they wanted another person from a foreign country so I submitted my papers to them, my degrees, certificates and the recommendations I received from my teachers and they accepted me in a late admission, I mean because they hadn't shut the door of admission and sometimes some students were accepted - joined when some students dropped out and there were vacancies and luckily for me there was a vacancy and I asked Rashid Al Rashid if he wanted to travel, because he studied in Claremont Graduate School, after he had finished Claremont Men's College so I asked him, should he travel to travel together because I didn't know the way and he agreed. We booked the tickets from Kuwait to Cairo and from Cairo to Copenhagen and from Copenhagen to New York and from New York to Washington, it was a long trip that took us days on the way to Claremont. When we reached Los Angeles, there was- I wished it had been dust but it was fog more than dust, it was famous, at the time, for dus- the fog, Los Angeles, I didn't know fog until then, it was the first time to see it. Of course Claremont insisted that I must be an in-house, in an obligatory residence for students so I lived in the university for two years, before graduation and luckily for me I was qualified to be better than other students so I was the second student in the - the second to graduate in the class that graduated in that year, in 1961.

- Aaa as for the residence in which you stayed, inside the university

- Yes

- Were there other Kuwaiti or Arab students with you? Aa what was the residence like?

- First, there were not any Kuwaiti students with me in the university at all, second, the foreign students there were so few, I had a Thai friend and a Saudi friend, no, pardon, the Saudi was in Pomona College, there was a Jordanian with us, in the university, those were the two Arabs, just the Saudi and - two or three, those were the Arabs and of course Rashid was in Claremont, in the same city, which was a very small village.

- Aa did you have close friendships in that place or you just concentrated on your studies?

- No, my main friend - the closest one was my friend from Thailand, who later on became the Minister of Planning of Thailand and he was one of the successful people and our relation has gone on until recently, the poor man is sick, I mean a we didn't -

- And you studied at that university the international relations, as you mentioned, right?

- Right, international relations.

- International relations aa the university itself you mentioned that it was in an area, I mean in a small village.

- Right.

- Just tell me about the university itself, for example, if you remember, the most prominent teachers, who taught you, aa the nature of the subjects aa I mean the system of the university itself.

- First, Claremont McKenna is now a part of a group of colleges, of similar colleges, the oldest of which is Pomona, so there was a union, a unity among them and a common library, a common activity, following the British style, like Oxford, different colleges forming the university and that was the case there, different colleges forming the university so five univers- colleges, at the time, Scripps, Pomona, Claremont Men's College, Claremont Graduate School and Harvey Mudd came later, it is much larger than before and the area was famous for orange production so it had orange farms all around the campus, at the time, and we were far from the - the city was so small, with one restaurant, one pharmacy, a post office and a few shops.

- What were the activities you did in such a small place? It didn't, perhaps, look like big cities, which have a lot of events, so what were your activities as students?

- Our activities were so limited, our focus was on studying and following the only university activities sometimes, at the times of stress, students made trouble, for instance they once put candles in the quadrangle, which was the perimeter surrounding the university, the students' quarters, they lit the candles and signaled the fire department, the fire department responded and the fire engines came. The fire department was completely of volunteers because it was a small city that couldn't afford to have professional personnel so all of them left their houses and went to the fire station, drove the fire engines and came to find out that the fire was that of candles, of course they sprayed us, sprayed the students with hoses, such things happened all the time.

- As some sort of entertainment for it was-

- Yes, yes.

- Yes, aa and as for the stage during which you returned to Kuwait, that was after graduation, right?

- Yes, yes.

- After graduation from America aa and you were planning on completing your education in aa Harvard, right?

- Graduate School.

- Graduate School, tell me about the period, when you moved from America and came back to Kuwait, that transition period, then moving to work.

- When I graduated, I decided to go back to Kuwait, via Asia, so I went from Claremont, from Los Angeles to Honolulu and from there to- from Honolulu to Tokyo and from Tokyo to Hong Kong and from Hong Kong to Karachi and from Karachi to Basra to get to Kuwait. At the time it was hard to move because Abdul Kareem Qasem, at the time was still there or Abdul Kareem Qasem's regime was over, at the time so- no, it was still there ... At the time Abdul Kareem Qasem was still there and my uncle, may God rest his soul was living in Iraq so I called him and he came and took me from Basra, from Basra airport, because Basra airport was the international airport, at the time, for Iraq due to the existence of the former English army and the Iraqi oil companies, which needed to- to work with companies abroad. He took me from the Basra airport, by car, and sent me by car to Kuwait, that was an experience I'll never forget, I had been stranded in Karachi, the weather was hot, the place was tight and the only air-conditioned place, in the hotel, was one room in which we spent the whole day to cool down, sorry.

- Aaa.

- I spent the summer there and I returned, at the end of the summer, to New York, from New York to Boston and from Boston, of course, to Claremont - to Harvard, which is Cambridge, across the river from Boston.

- Aa you mean aa traveling, back then, wasn't like aa today, I mean the idea of transit nowadays, not for an hour or two but instead you spent, in other countries, more than a day or a day.

- I wanted - wanted to see Tokyo, see Hong Kong, I mean to have a look at those areas and my Thai friend had friends in Hong - Tokyo, he had friends in Hong Kong, so he sent them letters saying that the so and so person was coming to you. He called and gave me their addresses and contact numbers and they were so nice when they met me.

- Aaa for how long did you stay in each county?

- Two or three days, I don't remember exactly but days not hours, I went to the country and everything, traveling was easy, at the time, when it comes to visas and stuff.

- And in that per - how long did you spend, in Kuwait, before going to Cambridge?

- At the time Abdul Kareem Qasem claimed Kuwait and Sheikh Abdullah Al Salem, may God rest his soul, at the time asked the people of Kuwait and said, "What do you want to do?" They said "Bring the English back," so the English army came to protect Kuwait and we were asked to volunteer, we volunteered as liaison officers, between us and the English army. I remember they gave us a gun and five bullets, for each one before that to be like civil guards in the neighborhoods, I volunteered with the mayor of the area to help in the night patrols to protect the people but they asked us to go to the army, to join the army so we joined, a group of Kuwaiti young people, who were good at English, joined the British forces as liaison officers between us and the Kuwaiti forces. We spent ten months with them, in the desert, then came the time of - we found that being there was useless, I mean practically it wasn't rewarding, so I asked for a permission to go back to my studies in Harvard out of worrying about missing the season.

- Did you receive any military training, on using weapons, for instance, or was it just a voluntary effort?

- It was voluntary and they gave us guns and bullets, they took an oath from us and asked for the bullets, five bullets and the gun when we left and the operation was over while we didn't even know how to shoot.

- Aaa.

- And I still don't know how to shoot.

- So they didn't train you or anything?

- No.

- Aaa do you remember the names of some of those who were with you at the time?

- A large number of them, we were a not very large group but I don't remember, Yousef Al Khurafi, for instance, was with us, aaa Abdul Aziz Abdul Razzaq was with us, may God rest their souls aa not - Sai'eed Shammas was with us, may God rest his soul, I don't remember the others.

- And what was the party that asked you for that kind of volunteering?

- The army leadership.

- The army leadership.

- Yes, we were in - our summer activities, all by ourselves they asked us, they sent for us and said, "We need you," and we volunteered, agreed to join them. They dressed us in military uniforms, gave us the guns and we were so proud but we found out that being there was useless except for being liaison officers more than anything else.

- Aaa were the families supportive to that idea or-

- Very, very, they didn't object, on the contrary, they liked and welcomed the idea.

- Aaa I'd like now to move to the period when you moved from Kuwait to aa study aa at the Graduate School.

- Yes

- Aaa you said that the process was done through letters and that you wrote to the university and went to Harvard to start studying.

- No, Harvard wasn't through letters, when I graduated from Oxford - from Claremont Cum Laude with Honors I submitted an application, like the rest of the students, an application to those colleges, which, as I mentioned, were Harvard, Stanford Berkeley and Claremont Graduate School and I was accepted in the four based upon the curriculum vitae, the grades I had and consequently they advised me to go to Harvard, so I was a student like any other, in the post graduate studies in Harvard.

- Aaa and how long did you spend in Harvard?

- A year and a half, I had half a year left to get the master's degree, which I missed when I returned to the - volunteered in the United Nations and returned to Kuwait and the Kuwait Fund was established and I started with the Kuwait Fund.

- Aa you volunteered in the United Nations while you were in America, right?

- Right

- Aaaa tell me how that happened, how did it start?

- I was in a visit to New York and of course I met Abdul Rahman Al Ateeqi, may God rest his soul, in the Kuwait Office, at the time, and he said to me that - I knew Rashid Al Rashid because he was a collegemate and of course we socialized and I learned from him that there was a need for a person to be - to help them, because they were two, they had been three and became two so I agreed to - I volunteered, he said, " Volunteer with us " and I said, " I will volunteer with you " particularly that my studies called for - helped me get into that field, in the first place, anyway I went and volunteered and asked the university for a vacation and the university agreed to postpone my return to the second semester. I worked with them in New York, I even remember, for example, that the three of us, I wrote the invitation cards and did the secretarial work, we called the delegations and communicated with them in a certain way, we didn't have a car so we used to take taxis so that the Iraqis wouldn't say they - the Iraqi ambassador used to say, "Is that a state? Look, Bedouins with money, that's a part of Iraq, Kuwait is," so we used taxis so that they wouldn't say that we were arrogant and showy. We left the humble hotel to the United Nations, deliberately in a way that showed we didn't come to show off with the money we had.

- Aaa beautiful aa who were the most prominent figures that you met aa besides, besides your colleagues, in that period, while working in the United Nations? Figures you dealt with and were not connected to the - aaa with you at work.

- The ambassadors of Egypt, the ambassador of Egypt, the assistant to the ambassador of Egypt, the ambassador of Saudi Arabia, of course, then the foreigners I didn't know them but among the things I recall is that Abu Anwar and I were walking in in in the United Nations, in the hall, the rest hall, and we saw the Russian ambassador and we went to the Russian ambassador and he said to us, " Don't apply, don't submit a request to join the United Nations as a member, for the third time, because we will vote against it "

- Aa what were the reasons?

- Because they supported Iraq.

- So they aaa sort of hindered your efforts to apply for the membership?

- The third veto so I said to him, " I'd rather.." I middled in and said to him, "I'd rather we submitted the request and you turned it down, so that the people of Kuwait would realize the depth of your friendship with us." And we did apply and our request was turned down for the third time until the situation in Iraq changed and they changed their position.

- Aaa I'd like to stop here today.

- With pleasure.

- Aa we will continue on another day, if you don't mind.

- God willing.

- Just to -

- Aaaa good morning.

- Good morning.

- Peace be upon you, today is Tuesday, March 9, 2021 aa it's eleven am at the house of Mr. Abdul Lateef Al Hamad, in Salmiya aa opposite Baghdad Street aa I am Reem Al Hajri and today, God willing, we will resume aa the interview aaaa how are you today, Sir?

- Thank God, thank God.

- Thank God, aaa we talked in the - aa the previous interview, aa briefly about your childhood and the different stages of your life. I wish, today, we went aa a little bit back to - to the neighborhood and the place where you were raised and the place where you grew up aa and I'd like you to tell me more about aaa about- about the neighborhood itself aa about Salmiya in the past, about the area, where we are right now but aa in the past.

- First, as I mentioned, my short childhood was in Kuwait then I spent most of the boyhood days in Alexandria, Victoria so I can't talk a lot about the neighborhoods of Kuwait because when I was in Kuwait I was a little child and not allowed to wander as I pleased but Kuwait, at the time was simple, uncomplicated and secure, we went out of our houses and walked, walked from - almost from the - I remember from the current museum to the Al Qeblia school, which was across aa across Fahed Al Salem Street, on the other side, in the Saihad neighborhood, as called at the time, we were safe and felt secure and there was no fear, it was a safe country, in that side, in addition Salmiya for us was the resort to which we went in summer and spring. The area, where we are now, was the inhabited area, our neighbors were the Abdul Jaleels and our neighbors, on the other side, a little bit farther were a group of the - big ones - the Al Awazem tribe, Al Uthainas, Al Wasmis and so on while the area between us, between here and the rest of the street - the streets existing now were empty areas, we used to stand here and see Hawalli. The Bayan palace was there, at the time, and the palace of Sheikh Ahmed Al Jaber, may God rest his soul, was also there and we used to see the palace, there was - Abdul Rahman Al Baher was the neighbor of Sheikh Ahmed and Abdul Rahman Al Baher was my aunt's husband so we went there sometimes and walked from there to Hawalli, on foot and there was a desert area, not far from the area, about where the sand dunes is, where the - the current Amman Street, I mean in the middle of Baghdad Street there was a vast sand expanse where we used to play, as children at the time, but essentially we came here - to spend the time in spring or in the early summer, for the sea and swimming because our houses were directly by the sea and we went from the house directly to the water.

- Aaa, excellent, we also talked earlier about the aaa the stage when aa you managed the Kuwait Fund for Development, which was after aaa after graduation and you were aaa planning, at the time, to get your master's degree, tell me about leading the Kuwait Fund for Development what were the most prominent events that took place while leading the fund?

- Many events took place while lea - in the early stage of the Kuwait Fund. First, it must be recorded that the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development was the first institution from an ins - from a developing country for the developing countries and there were no other institutions, the World Bank, at the time, was about twelve or fifteen years old, not more, then came the Kuwait Fund. We followed the footsteps of the World Bank but we took a totally different attitude, as the Kuwait Fund was the starting point and we had a very vast activity in the Arab countries. The first to borrow from us were Jordan and Sudan then Egypt a - and Algeria, directly following its independence, they came to us to finance their oil transportation line from the desert to the coast, the Arzew line. The French fought those countries over that project, trying to foil the project so the Algerians left them and turned to us. We went and made a certain clear decision, so as to be able to independently choose the suitable companies that enabled them to carry out the project competently with the ability to carry it out so quickly and that was with the support of the Kuwait Fund. The Kuwait Fund was distinguished for having a group of Arab experts, with some Kuwaitis to train with them, and now, thank God, it is considered one of the leading institutions in the Arabic work, regarding the common development efforts with developing countries. The Kuwait Fund was one of the ideas of the late Emir, Abdullah Al Salem, may God rest his soul, he thought it wasn't acceptable for us to be wealthy while our neighbors were poor and in need so he split with them a share of Kuwait's wealth, to use as a capital. Now the Kuwait Fund is considered - as I mentioned, managed to finance itself by itself with its own resources and was able to carry out its projects. There were fears that those countries wouldn't pay back and we confirmed that that wasn't likely to happen if things were studied thoroughly and done right and there indeed was a very clear rule that the debtor countries should respect their obligations and in case they didn't respect their obligations, their projects would be halted. As for the major project we financed were in Sudan - in the first stage were aa the phosphate projects in Jordan, the Al-Quds electricity project, the InterContinental Hotel in Al-Quds that was for Jordan and the railway, developing the Sudan railways in Sudan and in in Tunisia there was a battle with the - a political one more than anything else, between the World Bank and Tunisia as the French interfered to stop the funding of the Tunisia electricity project and the water projects to develop some agricultural areas because the French thought that the compensations, paid by Tunisia, were not enough so we interfered and financed those projects and the Fund took off since then. Furthermore the Fund in a country like Morocco, for instance, was the first to finance the dams projects in Morocco, to protect the water, the water wealth there and that was considered - it was considered a very huge step, all that was accomplished in the 1960s, from the year - during the first ten years of the Fund's life.

- Aa excellent, you mentioned aa many cla - clashes in the countries that that needed finance from the Kuwait Fund for Development and with France, as a country, did that put you in aaa situations aa that were aa politically undesired for with France or was there a policy to deal with such clashes and what was it?

- We didn't get involved in politics, in the first place, we looked at things from the technical point of view, so much so that sometimes they tried to lay pressure on us and we refused any pressure, by any party whatsoever, as we were a public and independent organization that didn't belong to any country, only taking into consideration the best interests of the countries we dealt with and I recall, in one of the cases, that one of the British companies proposed an offer for the Algerian project, the Algerian pipelines, we were not convinced that it was competent enough and they came to me, the representatives of the company, with an official from the British embassy, came to my office and tried to push me and I said to them, "You are not qualified enough, we are not willing to enroll the consultant and the contractor at the same time and you established the consultancy temporarily- lately, for that project and that's not acceptable." They pushed us "Don't try, we won't move - we won't change our decision and you can do whatever you want with the government, with the country, but this is the stand of the Fund, if things are not right we won't move." And indeed that attitude established the rules which are still standing until now, for the Kuwait Fund and other funds. The Kuwait Fund became a role model for other Arabic funds, about nine financial institutions - funding institutions, including the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, which the Kuwait Fund played a role in establishing.

- Aaa you also mentioned earlier that the Kuwait Fund is currently so successful that it became able to finance itself aa tell me about the early stages and the plans that that led to that success making the Kuwait Fund really able to aa be self-funding without the need to-

- The independence of the Kuwait Fund was established through insisting on getting the capital directly and running the financial resources of the Fund by the Fund itself, not by any other organization in the government, that helped to build that portfolio which enabled the Fund to develop and expand it in order for it to be today one of the giant institutions, so big in Kuwait, although that is not clearly seen because people don't deal much with the Kuwait Fund, consequently they don't know the Kuwait Fund and the importance of the Kuwait Fund for Kuwait to be in an international status and for the respect of the world for Kuwait. For instance, during the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, in 1990, my colleagues told me, while we were in the World Bank meetings, that the corridor, in the hotel, leading to the Kuwait Fund office, was full of delegations from all the African countries and the developing countries supporting Kuwait because Kuwait had dealt with them, through the Kuwait Fund competently, honestly and independently, away from politics or politicization and not to do something to use for another goal so the Fund played a role, in that side, of projects which the Fund helped finance, for instance in Egypt, was - clearing the Sues Canal, after the 1956 war, which destroyed the canal and the Fund played a big role in that project, at the time

- Excellent aaa - will you kindly tell me about the period after the end of your term with the Kuwait Fund? And wh - tell me about that period, what was the transition stage, to what was next?

- I was working at the Kuwait Fund and I was offered, more than once, to be a minister and I apologized but in 1981 there was persistence and insistence, by Sheikh Sa'ad, may God rest his soul, he was - to be the Minister of Finance and a Minister of Planning so I left the Kuwait Fund and moved to the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Planning as a minister of st - of those two institutions and that was the stage in which my relation with the Kuwait Fund, as a manager, ended but I continued, as a Minister of Finance, representing the chairman, who was the Prime Minister, at the time - he wasn't the Prime Minister at the time - no, sorry, the Prime Minister, at the time, was the chairman and he - he charged the Minister of Finance to run the adm - the meetings so I was - the chairman of the Fund, at the time - I continued for thirty months, which was the period I spent in the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Planning.

- Aa will you tell me, in more details, about the period you spent in the Ministry of Finance? What were the most prominent events, in that period, and the changes or aa the work policy?

- One of the most important things, of which I'm proud, regarding my role in the Ministry of Finance was establishing the Kuwait Investment Authority, it was very important for it to be independent and to have a valid entity, in order to work for preserving the resources of the State of Kuwait and protecting the resources of the future generations. Among the other projects I did, as a Minister of Planning, was the Civil ID project, the civil registration, hadn't the civil registration existed, we wouldn't have been able to tell the world the exact number of the Kuwaiti people on August 1, 1990, the day Iraq occupied Kuwait, all their names were there, and that collection of records was smuggled from Kuwait to Dammam, to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in Ta'if and at the time I suggested to Sulaiman Al Mutawwa', may God rest his soul, as a Minister of Planning, to register, in the United Nations, that the citizens of Kuwait, on August 1st , were so and so and so, the existing names so if he wanted to move a million Iraqis to Kuwait saying, "I will take the votes," he'd fail so the plans for that failed.

- Aaa in what aa year aa did you begin documenting the civil registration?

- The law came into effect in 1982 and beg - the National Assembly passed it in 1981 and in 1982 we began executing the project.

- Aa what were the most prominent names in charge of that project?

- The project was run, at the time, by the minister, an assistant deputy minister, in the Ministry of Planning aa Al Shaijji - I forgot his first name, he was one of the best young people, I charged him to be the manager of the project, the manager of The Public Authority for Civil Information and he did indeed lay the good and distinguished foundations, which we see today, hadn't it for those foundations, we wouldn't have achieved a lot of what's happening now, managing the relation between the people and the government online, today you can manage all your official paperwork online, thanks to those records.

- Aa at the time was there aa a popular acceptance, by the Kuwaitis, of the idea or was it aa like an alien or a strange idea for them?

- There was - of course not, those aware enough were very few but one of the National Assembly members, one of the very simple people, when he read, in the law, that those who violated those regulations - violated that law by giving false information, would be punished with a prison sentence he said, "You mean that the Minister of Interior has a record, the Minister of Defense has a record and even the Minister of Planning will be given a record?"

- [Al Hajri laughs] Right, we were talking about aa the decision to record or aa archive the civil records of the Kuwaitis aa and you were telling me about the aa National Assembly and --

- Faisal Al Shaijji, sorry, his name was Faisal Al Shaijji.

- Faisal Al Shaijji, aaa -

- The memory sometimes lags behind.

- [Al Hajri laughs] Right, the person who led the - aaa the the -

- He was the one who played a big role in establishing the authority, on organized and sound bases, the way we benefit from until now and of course many good young people too followed him so it is one of the most successful institutions in Kuwait today.

- How long did the process take you, to, I mean, to document all the civil records of the Kuwaitis?

- It took time, it took months, about a year perhaps, for the Kuwaitis and the residents too, I mean don't forget all - it took about a year perhaps before it was complete.

- And from - from where did the feeling about the necessity of that process come? I mean how did the idea originally emerge?

- For the history we must record that who preceded me was Muhammed Al Adsani, may God heal him, he was the Minister of Planning and he was the one who started the project and I continued when I became the minister, I completed the project with him and proposed it to the National Assembly and advocated it in the National Assembly.

- Excellent aa and after, after you became a minister and left the ministry, what was the step to what was next?

- I resigned, from the ministry, in aa 1984, following a disagreement between me and the ministerial committee responsible for handling the Souk Al-Manakh stock market crash. I left the ministry and spent about nine months in a personal life, I mean I didn't have an official job, I was trying to rearrange my affairs, in order to establish a financial investment institution and I actually got a group of shareholders, who paid their shares, that group, then later on, in 1985, Jasem Al Khurafi, may God rest his soul, asked me to run the Arab Fund for Economic Development, I tried to hesitate and he insisted, he and Sheikh Sa'ad, may God rest his soul, Sheikh Sa'ad said, "Jasem came to me and I need you to run the project too," so I apologized to the committee, that was helping me establish the institution and they said, "Stay in both of them." I said, "It's not possible for a person to have two hearts, one heart is enough, it's either the Arab Fund - if you don't allow me to leave and pardon me, I won't accept the offer of the fund," and they said, "No, that is a special mission, a big mission and a noble national mission," so they relieved me and I returned the money to its owners, thank God, in full with the profits we got during that short period, we had the money for, and thank God I began running the Arab Fund because I had a connection to its establishment, from the beginning, through the Kuwait Fund I've kept working at the Arab Fund since 1985 until a few months ago when I retired from the Fund last September.

- Aaa I'd like to talk, in more details, about the Arab Fund but before moving to it aa will you tell me about your resignation and the nature of that disagreement? What were the different opinions, at the time, that led to your resignation?

- First, there was a lot of pressure on the government, by those dealing in the market, my opinion was that there was a group of hundreds, those were the owners they were- they dealt in more than 90 % of the trading while the rest was in the hands of a huge number of citizens, who had been compensated because they mortgaged their homes and - or put - used all their savings and assets and to protect the social fabric we agreed that there ought to be compensations for them and indeed they were compensated as the government bought their debts and when we came to the other project I thought that we should concentrate on protecting aa the role of the banks and institutions more than protecting - looking for persons, then handling every person, as they were a few hundreds, a very limited number that could be handled directly, every one by themselves, but the opinion of the governmental joint committee and the opinion of the ministry - the opinion of the cabinet was to make a leading law applied to everyone and I wasn't willing to accept that so the law was proposed to the National Assembly in a time during which I was away from Kuwait, because my wife was with me for a surgery she had in London, so I took her there for treatment. I came back one day - one day before the National Assembly meeting and attended the cabinet session where we were told that the following day there would be a meeting for the National Assembly to discuss that project. At the time I had my resignation written and after the session I handed it to the Prime Minister and asked him to allow me to travel so that there wouldn't be any rumors and he said, "How could you travel?" I said to him, "I will travel because I'm not willing to go to the National Assembly and say things against my ideas, which I presented and at the same time I'm not willing to stand in opposition to the government because that attitude is immoral so excuse me for travelling," and indeed I travelled aa that night, I left Kuwait and disappeared from under the spotlights for months before my resignation was accepted.

- Aaa beautiful aaa after your resignation aa you talked about establishing a private institution...

- Yes.

- Aaa tell me more about it, about the idea, who the financers were and so on.

- The financers were a group of pers - of businessmen in Kuwait, I don't remember the names now, as this is not the time for that but a group responded to the idea and we were going to establish that institution and work to invest according to the international standards more than - and we really did - we recruited a very big consultancy from America to set up the rules and regulations that enabled us to establish that institution. All that was done but as I mentioned, the circumstances didn't allow for us to carry out the project so upon terminating the project we returned the money to its owners.

- Aaa after that you started leading the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, in around 1985?

- 1985 in September, September 15, 1985.

- Aa.

- The decision was made in July in the conference, the state annual conference of the fund, the annual meeting of the Social and Economic Development Fund in Khartoum but I asked them to postpone my appointment to September because I had promised my daughter, who was going to study in America, that I would go with her and help her settle in and get assured, at university, before I went back to work.

- Aa you said that - that while working at the Kuwait Fund for Development you were aa laying the foundations for that project, aa tell me more about that matter.

- The idea the Kuwait Fund - the Kuwait Fund sorry, the idea of the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development had been there as an idea in - at the Arab League, for many years but the idea was on the shelves, collecting dust. Abdul Rahman Al Ateeqi, may God rest his soul, was the Minister of Finance, he suggested the idea to try to revive the institution and indeed Kuwait adopted the project and he asked the fund , asked me and the fund to review the document itself and modifying the agreement so that it would be practical and suitable for the time in which we were and the Kuwait Fund used - we used the help of a group of the distinguished experts, from the Kuwait Fund, headed by Ibraheem Shihata, may God rest his soul, who later on became the Legal consultant for the World Bank so those were among the people who played a big role in rebuilding the institution and from there we went on to establish the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, it was launched as a project and it is one of the largest giant groups now, it funds itself by itself and moves strongly and competently funding projects worth of over eleven billion Kuwaiti dinars so far, over the past period including important roads, dams, the electrical interconnectors and different national projects.

- Aa excellent, I'd like you to tell me more about aaa the most prominent projects on which, while you were the chairman of aaa the fund, they worked.

- The electrical interconnectors among the Arab countries, among Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, we were supposed to continue to Iraq then to the Gulf countries, the Gulf countries, at first, were reluctant but they established the Gulf interconnector among themselves, after they witnessed the success of the project, the road networks, the major motorways as they say, the Maghreb Highway from Mauritania to the borders of Egypt, it links - one can drive all the way from Mauritania until they reach Egypt easily. Of course there were obstacles, in certain countries on the way, but the project is almost done now, till the Libyan borders. The dams project, in a country like Jordan, for example, sorry, Jordan has dams financed by the fund, but as for the major dams in Morocco and in Tunisia, the fund played a big role in them, financing a large number of those dams. The road networks, as they call them, the major highways in Morocco, the fund financed, the fund contributed to financing more than two thousand kilometers of distinguished roads, in international standards, all over Morocco and that was one of the very big and vital projects. The fund also played a big role in the project of the Tangier-Med port complex, which is in Tangier and was supp - it was designed to handle about fi - half a million containers a year, it now handles more than two million containers a year and became one of the very important institutions for Morocco. Those are major and huge projects achieved by - electricity, for example, as for Egypt the World Bank suffered -- they suffered from the hesit - the intransigence of the World Bank towards funding the projects so the fund interfered and financed a large number of the electricity projects in a country like Egypt, that helped improve the Egyptian performance and the electrical interconnectors which was a part of the project, those projects - the main elements of the projects.

- Aaa you mentioned that, in many countries, aaa that you financed electricity, roads and so on, were there in aa - for the fund priorities, for some projects more than others? What was the policy for approval to a finance and so on?

- The priority wasn't for the fund but rather for the country itself, so when, when one of the countries came and said, "I want to finance an electricity project," for instance, we studied the electricity sector and studied the project and when we found that the feasibility was valid and sound and that the need is very bad we financed the project but when a country came saying, for example, "I'd like to build a football stadium." We apologized because that wasn't among the priorities financed by the fund. When a country came saying, "I'd like to achieve an integrated rural development." Like in Tunisia, for instance, that is to reach all the rural areas, improving schools and health - education, health, clean water and the local road networks so the fund supported a lot that project while the World Bank was hesitant. When the Fund came and a country, like Mauritania, with such a vast area with large projects in the desert, Mauritania came and said , "I want to build a main road, from the capital, on the ocean, to the Mauritanian borders, to the borders of Mali," which is a distance of about one thousand kilometers, the World Bank considered it useless and the Fund played a role in establishing that project and carrying it out and indeed we financed the project and the World Bank later on admitted, "That is the real development, which we need to achieve." When we look at another project, for instance, Mauritania was one of the countries that contributed to building the Manantali Dam, which is among Mali, Mauritania and Senegal, Mali and Senegal benefited from the water while Mauritania didn't benefit from the dam water, in irrigation or drinking etc-- so we launched a project, among the joint Arab funds, led by the Arab Fund and financed the pipelines from the borders, from the river to - to the capital and the size of the - the World Bank was interested in the matter but it insisted that the power should be less than the power we agreed on so we insisted on that power and the World Bank withdrew and consequently there was a complete Arab finance for the project and the facts were proven by the results, the result that, with time, the demand for water was a lot bigger than what the World Bank thought, I mean in many cases we and the World Bank had technical and economic disagreements but there has always been cooperation, between us and them and good and strong relations too.

- Aaa I wish we'd talk more about that, you mentioned aaa some obstacles, particularly regarding the matters related to the collaboration among many countries, for instance, or projects aa extending across many countries, what were the incentives behind those obstacles and their reasons?

- No, of course there were, first, there was the routine and there was the selfish thinking and sometimes there was the absence of the necessary political decision and things took too much time to establish the understanding in politics too, damn politics, it sometimes separates rather than gathers, so that was, sometimes, one of the problems we faced. Take for example the link between Jordan and Egypt, it was achieved and completed, with the cable running under the sea, now I think there is a project between Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and the link will be through that line and also between Jordan and Syria, it has been completed and those were the projects accomplished - Lebanon, the link was proposed between Syria and Lebanon, but it hasn't been done yet, largely due to internal Lebanese reasons, more than anything else, so sometimes projects face problems related to the country itself rather than the project in itself or the group as a group or the interests in general.

- Excellent aaa before - we will go back to the Arab Fund aa because you returned to it, later on, aa in your life, but tell me about the first time you left the Arab Fund for Development aa that period between the end of your career in Arab Fund for Development till the Iraqi invasion.

- I beg your pardon; I didn't understand the question.

- Tell me about aa leaving the Arab Fund for Development and that transition period till the Iraqi invasion.

- I left the Arab Fund lately, I mean not so long ago, during the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, my kids and I and the whole family were outside Kuwait on vacation, we were in Austria for the Classic Music Season, to which we went every year, so we left Austria and went back to London, where we used to live. I focused on preserving that institution, as it was a trust, and we indeed managed to preserve it, by cancelling all the signatures except for my signature. I agreed with the British authorities to lift the restraint imposed on it and two months later we established an office in the fu - a temporary office for the Fund in Bahrain, to which the activities of the Arab Fund moved from Kuwait, where we couldn't work, to Bahrain. The colleagues there, the judges, who were in the Arab Fund in Kuwait, preserved the office, we smuggled the Fund's documents from - to London, we checked them and copied them as all of them were on discs, on computer tapes, and transported them to Bahrain and began working in a very short period and in the same time we were trying to present Kuwait's point of view and the integrity of Kuwait's situation and the brutality and atrocious of the Iraqi occupation to different parties in Europe and in America.

- Aa tell me about the moment you heard the news, finding out about the Iraqi invasion and what the first steps you took were.

- My young daughter, my youngest daughter, in London, was living with her aunt because she couldn't go with us to the concerts, which were for people eight years and older and she was under eight years old. Her aunt called us, in the early morning, at the hotel and said, "Did you hear about the invasion? Iraq occupied Kuwait." We changed our clothes at once and went to wait by the airways office to get back to London at once, we cancelled everything; our programs, the hotel reservation, we paid our bills and went to London and from London. In London we began defending the rights of Kuwait and preserving the institution, with which we were entrusted and thank God we succeeded in that. One of the things that we - for example all the money of those in Kuwait was frozen, of course without - freezing the money of the Arab Fund prevented us from moving so we held meetings with the officials of the bank - the Central Bank and they said, "On the 20th of the month we'll give you our final answer," and indeed on the 20th of the month they lifted the restraint when they were convinced that the Arab Fund wasn't - was unlikely for Iraq to take control over, because we were outside Kuwait, at the time, and we stopped all the dealings of the Fund and we managed to do that, then we started, since then, to reestablish the activities of the Fund, there were two of us, me and a colleague, who was on a mission in London so we represented the Fund outside Kuwait till we reestablished the Fund, later on, by contacting all the employees we could meet and we managed to move a group of them, the group members, to Bahrain, to resume the work of the Fund.

- What were the reasons behind choosing Bahrain, in particular, as a temporary headquarters for the Fund?

- First, they welcomed helping us and indeed they offered great services and quick decisions, second, the good relation between us and them, second the short distance between Bahrain and Kuwait, for more than one reason, those were the reasons - second, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia played a role in liberating Kuwait that can never be forgotten and we are in debt for them for that but the existence of Kuwait's government - in the Kingdom, we wanted to be independent, being in Bahrain, for the quick movement and the quick decision, which came right away from the Bahraini government, some countries offered us, "Come to us," and we said to them, "No, we agreed with Bahrain," it was the decision of the governors, I mean the Ministers of Finance of the Arab countries because the meetings of the World Bank were in September and I passed them a written decision and the first to sign it was Muhammed Aba Alkhail, the Minister of Finance of Bahr -- of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and all the Ministers of Finance followed him, the board of directors of the Fund so the decision to be in Bahrain was made by the board of directors.

- And what were the most prominent activities of the Fund during the Iraqi invasion?

- Protecting the Fund's money and going on with the execution of the projects we had started in some countries, those which abode by the rules of the Fund and fulfilled their commitments the Fund fulfilled its commitments to them. We kept the fabric of the relations that connected the Arab Fund to the member countries in the Arab region.

- Aa were there - did the Iraqi invasion and the attitudes of the Arab countries aa towards the invasion affect the dealing of the Fund with some countries or things went on smoothly, regardless of politics?

- The Fund looked at things with the utmost independence, so as to fulfill its commitments and play its role, we continued that way, considering that development is a wide fabric process, on the long run and not a process - politics is a short, recurring and renewable process. For example, should we look at the sixties, when Abdul Kareem Qasem claimed Kuwait, what were the countries that supported Kuwait? Sudan, Jordan for instance and among the major countries were Egypt, of course, and other countries while the countries which were considered the counter-states, what were they? They were Sudan, Jordan and the countries whose relations are now very good with a country like the State of Kuwait, what are they? Jordan and Sudan so politics change - sovereignty - politics is high and low tides while economic and social development is an extensive process that must not stop, because it has no high and low tides, that's - the sea has high and low tides and development is like a river, it runs and never returns again so it's a shame to waste the time, in which we can execute those projects.

- So the permanent vision of the Fund aa concentrated on development, in particular, not considering politics its motive?

- No, if we involve politics, whose politics? All the member countries have rights in the Fund and participate in financing the Fund, in different percentages of course, as the main participants are Kuwait then the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, those are the biggest participants, perhaps with more than 50% so you can't adopt the policy of this or that or those because policies sometimes differ, just like I mentioned, as high and low tides.

- Aaa have you, while aa heading the Fund, aa gone through crises or or big problems you can tell me about?

- Of course there were always crises because different countries disagree, for example we financed - were asked to finance projects in Tun - in Libya, in the electricity sector, we looked at the matter so as to - from the technical and economic point of view and found it was useful so we financed it and I asked the Minister of Planning, the Minister of Electricity, in Libya, at the time, "Why borrow from us while having the ability to finance this project? Finance - you scatter your money right and left during the era of Gaddafi." He said to me, "It's easier for me to deal with you than with my government because with you I know where I am going," so we financed projects there and they were committed till the revolution broke out and if course there were developments and the Fund stopped its activity in Libya, the projects of a country that doesn't respect its commitments towards the Fund are not financed and its funding stops.

- Aaa I'd like to talk about - let's go back to the Iraqi invasion and talk more personally aaa about you, about your family and the communication, what was the situation like at the time?

- As I mentioned, my direct family was with us in London, my sister was in Kuwait, my brother was in Kuwait, he chose to stay in Kuwait, my sister migrated - she left to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when I knew she arrived at Dammam I went to see her and suggested to her to come to Bahrain, for it'd be easier for her - so she moved, with her husband, to Bahrain. My mother was outside Kuwait, she was in Switzerland, for the summer, my father, may God rest his soul, was dead, at the time, my uncle was staying in Kuwait and he stayed, he didn't leave Kuwait that - my cousin was outside Kuwait, may God rest her soul, and she came back to be with her father, she's to be thanked for that, it was a great humane attitude by her, may God rest her soul, that was the direct family but as for the others, they were dispersed outside Kuwait in - because the invasion happened in a time, in the middle of the summer holidays.

- Did you move easily, as Kuwaitis, considering that Kuwait was going through a crisis at the time?

- There was no problem because we were staying in London, for example the response of the British government was so smooth, in many situations and as for the Arab countries, we went to, like Bahrain and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, there was no problem.

- Aa, right, I'd like to talk about the end of the Iraqi invasion

- Yes.

- Aa we know that that period was aa like aa a period of assessment, a period of evaluation and some people might tend to say that it was aa a period of judging the situation, which was prevailing, during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, so tell me about the effects of all that, of the end of the Iraqi invasion on the Fund, its activity and the work.

- As for the Fund, it didn't - our colleagues, who were in Kuwait preserved the Fund, the offices of the Fund and the documents of the Fund, which were here and that is to be recorded for them, historically and as I said, we too smuggled the Fund's documents, through one of our Palestinian colleagues and moved them to Bahrain, after copying them and we left a copy in London, a copy in London, another copy in Bahrain, which I transported personally on a plane to Bahrain and we established the institution so it was a fully operating institution, with a group of the elite staff members of the Fund, at the time, while the rest of the employees were on call in their homes and those who resigned were given their rights and their careers with us were over. The Fund kept operating, as I mentioned, to be one of the institutions that kept working, considering that the Arab world was in a very tough situation, the Iraqi invasion couldn't touch us because we were far from it and at the same time as for the relations between us and Iraq, Iraq was a very small contributor to the Fund and couldn't do anything else and that situation - I mean we kept working in a very normal manner, considering -

- You mentioned that there were employees in the inside, inside Kuwait and that there aa was that employee who helped you smuggle the documents aa he was a Palestinian employee, do you remember some of the names? The name of the Palestinian employee, the employees who were in Kuwait, do you remember some of their names?

- Yes, of course, the person, who smuggled the documents or moved the documents to Jordan and from there to London, was Ismail Zabri, he was the manager of one of the, the manager of the technical department, at the time, and the main person, who tried to protect the Fund in Kuwait, was Abdul Rahman Al Hemaimeedi, who is currently the manager of the department - the manager of the division, the managerial administration in the Arab Fund, one of the excellent Kuwaiti young men, or of the Kuwaiti very good men, of whose presence in the Arab Fund we are proud, those were mainly the two persons while the other names are too many to remember, it was, the conditions were tough for those present in Kuwait and tough for those outside Kuwait but we tried to protect their lives, dignity and standard.

- And how was that period -

- A colleague of mine helped them, he was in Iraq, an Iraqi working in the Kuwait Fund, he was one of the big members of the Ba'ath Party but honestly his stand was very honorable and he helped and protected the Kuwait Fund, as much as he could within the capabilities available in Kuwait.

- Is it possible to mention that person's name?

- Nabeel Al Atrajji.

- Nabeel Al Atrajji, aa and the transitional period - you established a temporary headquarters in Bahrain then there sure was a transitional period, during which you came back to Kuwait after the liberation.

- Yes.

- Tell me about that period and how it was aa -

- After the liberation, in May 1991, or after May - I'm not sure about the exact date, we began to move between Kuwait and Bahrain and I asked the Kuwaiti government to accept the entry of a group of the citizens of the countries considered as the opposing countries because the Fund is a neutral institution and I found compliance from them because I said to them, "I guarantee the Fund's employees but as for the persons of whom you are not content, for personal reasons, not because of their nationalities, I'm willing to tell you, tell them to go home, I will fire them but I hope your decision is based on that person being a Jordanian or Palestinian or so or so , because this is harmful, on the long run, and eventually won't lead to any results because we need to rebuild our bridges with the surrounding countries, we can't live in isolation," and the government's response, at the time, was very good and sensible and distinguished - I beg your pardon, and we got underway back then.

- I'd like to talk about, about a more recent time frame, from after the Iraqi invasion until now, you recently, in 2020, left the Arab Fund for Development.

- In September 2020, September 15,2020, my term came to an end because it has been renewed five times, each of which was for five years then five years, from 1985 to 2020.

- Tell me about that period, the period after the Iraqi invasion until you left the Arab Fund for Development, aaa what were your first moves, after the invasion, the most recent projects aa until now?

- After the invasion, as I mentioned, we concentrated on major projects, most of which I have already mentioned, the roads, the electrical grid, road networks, dams, water from one country to another, we made huge progress in those and the Fund kept growing, its capital increased and the Fund's activities doubled, in the first year I began running the Fund the size of loans was seventy five millions and when I left the Fund the annual amount of loans was more than five hundred million Kuwaiti dinars, I mean there was a very huge movement.

- Aaa you have recently been awarded the State Appreciation Award of the inst -- aa the Kuwait Foundation for the Advancement of Sciences Appreciation Award.

- Yes.

- Aa tell me about that experience.

- It was announced that I was one of the winners but until now nothing happened, I don't have, I can't say anything, they are to be thanked for considering that I deserve that award and I'm proud of it because that award from Kuwait is considered one of the very rare awards but until now nothing happened, I mean the circumstances didn't allow for that to happen - with the death of Sheikh Sabah, may God rest his soul, and the environment hit by the coronavirus and the halt of activity and the social and economic movement and the activity stopped. We're waiting for the time to be invited to attend, I'll be honored to receive that award or officially announcing it, the decision was made by the board of directors and I thank and appreciate that kind gesture from them.

- Aaa in the period that you lef- aaa after leaving the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development aa what were your personal direction? Did you aa want to keep working? Aa Tell me about that period.

- Sure enough I am a man, who as they say, is a workaholic, for example I went to the office at six o'clock and stayed there till two thirty or three, of course now I consider myself retired, my day starts after ten so I take my time reading, exercising, a few exercises, and relaxing at home as I am planning on establishing a small office, for those who'd like to communicate with me. I didn't have any economic activity, I didn't have any commercial activity, other than the activity of the -- other than my job in the Fund so I am retired, second, the health side, my health doesn't allow me to do much of what I used to do in - neither the age nor the health.

- Aaa your life is very rich in different aa different sides with the different aa posts you assumed, should I ask you, from your own point of view, about the most prominent stage in your life, what would it be?

- I was lucky to start with the Kuwait Fund and finish with the Arab Fund, I consider that the huge outstanding service, the one unannounced and unnoticed, for regular people but had a huge impact on the lives of others, those who benefited from it. I think the people of the Arab nation, in the Arab countries, or the developing nations benefiting from the aid the Fund offered, the two funds, was so important in our life, it was considered among the very good activities and I can't say which was better, but being, I mean I was fortunate to be in both funds, which played a big role in the economic and social development of the developing countries and the Arab countries.

- I'd like to go back to some of the points we mentioned aaa during the period, in which you were a minister, I'd like to talk more, or I'd like us to talk more.

- Yes.

- Aaa about your relation with aa the National Assembly.

- Yes.

- And aa the most prominent events that took place, during that period, will you tell me more about the rel - about your term as a minister and your relation with the National Assembly at the time?

- The first thing I did when I went to the National Assembly, as a minister, was that I turned down any mediations by the members. While being in a session one of them would come to me saying, "Sign this," and I refused that and did - the thing I did was that I took, with me, an employee, from the ministry, to the National Assembly to - for the public and when it came - a request came from a member, for the benefit of a citizen or someone, I used to say to him, "Look, we will study the request, if they have the right, it's my duty to give it to them but if they don't have the right, they won't get anything." We collected the appeals and studied them meticulously and gave everyone the rights they were entitled to and apologized to the others. At first it was a pile of requests this big but after a while it became nothing because they found out that there was no use in mediations or in "Sign this paper for me," because I refused. That was the first contact so credibility grew between me and the members of the National Assembly. Of course the relation didn't continue for long because I left the National Assembly - the government and consequently it wasn't possible to play a very big role in the activity of the National Assembly, more than the short period I spent there, there was even a kind of cooperation and understanding. For instance some members wanted to do, three members wanted to suggest, propose a project, to the institution, to establish an institution to manage the government funds, that was the Insurance Organization, not the Insurance Organization, sorry, the Investment Authority and I said to them, "Give me three months because I have the same way of thinking but we need to do a thorough study, not rush things," and they agreed and gave me the three months. On day 90, at the end of the three months, they said, "Where?" and I said, "It is ready and being typed, it will be delivered to you next week," and indeed we started from there and laid the sound foundation of the Investment Authority, which has started since then. So there was an understanding with some of the sensible ones, in the National Assembly while some others were ignorant and there was a lack of understanding - not for ill intentions but for ignorance, more than anything else and I found nothing but all respect and appreciation from them. My relation with them continued to be good and distinguished and there were no obstacles, between me and them, when, for instance, they asked for a questioning or asked for - because I avoided to give a reason for that, the parliamentary experience should be respected for being the future of Kuwait, the balance among people and the social balance that must be created through something, an institution like the National Assembly, but on sound and honest foundations rather than benefits or an unstudied process.

- Aa you also worked aa as we mentioned several times aa at the Kuwait Fund for Development and the Arab Fund for Development, which are somewhat considered aa institutions independent from the government, as you mentioned several times, and you also assumed a post as a minister, closer to the government and closer aa to the opinion of the people, considering that the decisions are always passed aa through the National Assembly, aa during your career aa you found that dealing with the government, while working in the aa two funds; the Kuwait Fund for Development and the Arab Fund for Development, was easier or it was easier during the period of being a minister aa being connected to the - or communicating with the government more closely?

- First when the Kuwait Fund and - the Kuwait Fund was independent, which helped us to act in a clear line, from the very beginning, and we took that road while the Arab Fund was an international institution, not a Kuwaiti institution, a joint Arab institution, consequently it was independent and responsible before the governors council, who were the finance ministers of the member countries, being a Minister of Finance and a Minister of Planning I was a a part of a government so there were, sometimes, disagreements or different points of view but there has always been mutual respect between me and the government, so sometimes I proposed some ideas, to which they didn't agree, the National Assembly didn't agree to and I had two options; either to go along with the government, despite being convinced that those things were not feasible, or to resign and I couldn't resign with every incident, I resigned more than once, in some events, but I didn't, I kept the friendly relations between me and the persons, my relations were not personal but rather official, when it came to the disagreement in the points of view but the personal and human relations were so deep between me and all the members of the government, and they still are, thank God, I still consider them my friends, whom I respect.

- Aa I will go back a little bit to things we mentioned, in the previous interview, when we talked about you studying at the American University in Cairo and aaa then Harvard and Stamford

- Claremont.

- Aa yes, yes, pardon, you had relations with many figures in the Arab World, as you mentioned to me, did these relations, at university, help you, later on, when you started working for the aa Kuwait Fund or aa for the the Arab Fund for Development and if the answer is yes what was the nature of those relations?

- First in Claremont there wasn't a group of Arabs except, as I mentioned for only two or three and the friendship continued, the connection with some of them stopped and continued with others and as for Harvard there was a number of colleagues we were a group, a club the group of the Arab Club of the Arab students and I was elected as a president of it, an honorary president in order to help run certain operations for it and we didn't have any activity because we were busy studying. After we graduated, I cooperated with Ibrahim Shihata who was the colleague at the time, may God rest his soul, at university of the - at the university of Harvard, of Usama Al Baz, who was - who became the consultant of the president of Egypt, may God rest his soul. Another one of our colleagues, with whom the relation continued, was Sultan Abu Ali, a colleague who was - who worked with us at the Kuwait Fund, for certain period, he was also a colleague at the time in which we studied at university, while the others I have lost connection with them because everyone went in a different geographic direction or another and there wasn't a friendship between us because at that time when we were studying we didn't have much time for socializing but rather we concentrated on studying because it was required the requirements were too many and took a lot of time and effort and we spent most of the time with the books in the library or in our rooms studying.

- So in Cairo there was no student political activity at the time? Particularly that the events in Egypt where political events during that period.

- In Egypt the activity of the Kuwaiti young people in the Kuwait House was very huge for, at the time, there were the Nationalists, the Ba'athists and the Muslim Brothers etc. so there were many different trends and I was neutral I didn't get into any of those trends while my attitude was nationalistic more than religious but I didn't join any of those categories I tried to determine my situation according to my convictions in every case by itself.

- What were the activities of the Kuwait House aa within the political context that was in Egypt, at the time?

- Of course in that period the Nationalistic activity was the most prevailing and the attitude of young people was Nationalistic, with the presence of Abdul Naser and the Arab notion, and from that we learned a lesson about the importance of affiliation among the Arab countries and consequently that benefited us in the Kuwait Fund or even in the Arab Fund.

- Were there aa any aa lectures or educational sessions or something like that and if there were, what was the nature of those?

- Educational sessions were for the organizers of the party activities and I wasn't one of them that was first, second I didn't spend a long time in Cairo, as I mentioned, only from 1956 to 1958, just two school years then I left and went to America so there were seminars and communications but not in a very big activity, at the time.

- Aa as for your student activity in - when you moved to America, was it also limited, as you concentrated more on studying, or were there more student activities aa there?

- In Claremont, of course, I was an undergraduate more than anything else I didn't take part because most of the students were Americans and they were all in football, dating and all those things so I didn't have any activities with them I didn't think I mean we were a group of foreign students, from Thailand from Egypt -- no, there was no one from Egypt, from Thailand from Kuwait, one from Saudi Arabia and one from Iraq and we met and worked together but we didn't have any activities, I mean obvious ones because we were small in number and the society the college community itself wasn't big I mean in hundreds of students not in thousands.

- Aaa in the periods when you aa returned to Kuwait.

- Yes.

- Aaa what were the most prominent activities you did when you were in Kuwait? I mean as a student before you did any other work.

- I had an activity in the summer clubs, which were working, and an activity in the scouts groups, being a scout was the biggest activity in which I had a role, when I was a student, when I came to Kuwait, because I was a scout in a group of scouts in Victoria and that's what made me, I mean mostly interested in the camping activity and sports activities of the scouts.

- And as for entertainment I mean the culture of the society, at the time, regarding entertainment, what were the most prominent forms of entertainment, at the time, in Kuwait?

- In the 1960s, in the 1950 and 1960s there was a very huge cultural activity a very large number of the - of the prominent figures in the Arab world who held forums and gave lectures and they were invited by the Ministry - by the Department of Education, as the time, in continuous activities but of course we didn't participate in those because we were studying abroad. You know at the time the most prominent thing was the cinema I mean in this sixties in the fifties, the late 1950s and early 1960s, the cinema was a very important industry and the activity of the cinema even the Cinema Company was established in order to build cinema theaters and it was directed that the price of a ticket does not exceed a certain number, a certain figure and that went on until the end of the franchise and the situation changed, at the time, of course the other social activities were the Diwaniyas, not the Diwaniyas of young people, those were Diwaniyas of men where young people attended as listeners and there were not -

- Will you give me the names of some of those Diwaniyas?

- Every category, every family, had their Diwaniya and it's very difficult to remember all of them, all the big families had their own Diwaniyas.

- What was the nature of the aa the - as you mentioned those were Diwaniyas of men and young people attended to listen so what was the nature of the talks that took place in such types of Diwaniyas?

- That depended on the Diwaniya and its frequenters but in many cases it was about this the prices of fish and the prices of alfalfa.

- So they were social topics more than aa political or local political topics?

- Yes, that was it.

- Aaa and as for the local art, was there - because you mentioned that you in summer you were- you were art lovers and you attended aa aa different events outside Kuwait, was there any interest in the local Kuwaiti art, at the time, and was it even prominent?

- It wasn't prominent for me because as I said we came in summer and summer is a quiet period more than an activity period.

- So summer was a period of aaa quietness?

- Samrat and stuff we didn't - I didn't go to them.

- You didn't go to go to them but did you-

- I mean I liked them, that doesn't mean - but it wasn't there - they were not available, at the time.

- They were not available? You mean there was no audience in the --

- No, not the audience they were spontaneous more than anything else.

- Yes, yes, aaa I think we can stop here; we've covered most of the sides aa is there aaa something you would like to talk about in more details? Is there a final word you would like to say or any subject you feel like going into, in more details?

- No, I think we have covered everything, if you are satisfied, I am satisfied.

- I am satisfied, God willing, aaa, would you like to say one last word or-

- Thank you for this project and we look forward to seeing it when it's done and see its effect in defining that Kuwaiti society and the history of the Kuwaiti society in that period. I think our problem, in Kuwait, is that documenting is so limited and this is one of the documents, which I think will be so valid and I apologize that most of my activity was outside Kuwait, not inside Kuwait, and consequently we couldn't say more about the Kuwaiti society, on which you concentrate in this project.

- Aaa on the contrary, aa your activity outside Kuwait, the posts you assumed in Kuwait and you work outside Kuwait formed the nature of Kuwait's relations with many countries and and for sure those relations influenced the form of the - aaa the- aa Kuwait now and and all its activities even if the Fund didn't have any political activity aa but it sure affected the political aa relations-

- It created connections.

- Yes indeed, it affected the connections.

- It created a big role for Kuwait in the Arab world and despite its small size its role was a lot bigger than its size.

- Aa one last question I would like to conclude with, how do you see the relation between the Kuwaiti society now with the other Arab countries? Do you think that in a previous period aa of the history of the state the relations were better or you see that the relations are still aa in the required brotherly form or the form that projects like the fund sought to achieve?

- The relations of Kuwait with the surrounding countries not only the Arab countries, the surrounding countries, were always rational, strong and based on realistic bases more than being built on temporary bases because politics change. One day we were the allies of Saddam Hussain against the -Iran and when he was done with Iran, he turned against us so you can't say that there are rel - there are permanent relations, there are permanent interests but not permanent politics, these change according to circumstances. Kuwait preserved being independent in its stands and to have a role for the community, thank God, the international community as a society. Take for example, I remember for, example, the Development Association of the World Bank, IDA, for the poorest countries, I mean the countries that cannot borrow from the fun - from the World Bank, using the loans it offered to the countries with medium income so they depended on the IDA and the IDA reassessed the capabilities, the IDA, every five years, every three years sorry, and the countries committed to offer not the finance but they offered the insurance or the guarantee to borrow for the bank to borrow from the international market, in case of not paying back. That never happened because there was a default, to be able to ask those countries to pay and when we came to renewing the 5th IDA, for instance, I was representing Kuwait in the meetings that discussed that matter, suggested ideas and agreed to offering aid to build the IDA - at the time we were in Helsinki for a meeting and before I traveled I said to Sheikh Jaber, may God rest his soul, "were going, our share in the IDA will be about 40 million dollars, it is nothing." It was a small amount and we were in that tough period, the period of the - the oil sanctions in 1967 and after 1967, when there was a retreat in the economic activity due to the increase in the prices of oil. The resources, thank God, increased for us being oil countries because oil jumped from 40 - from 20 dollars became 100 and more, at the time, so I said to him, " If it is possible we can say that we are ready to offer additional support, an exceptional and not recurring one, of 200 millions and you know that the sum will not be drawn from our money but it's rather a sort of a moral guarantee, more than anything else," and he said "Go ahead," so I went to the meeting and asked the meeting president to be the first one to speak, he was the vice president and he said to me, "You ask to be that first speaker while your share is too small, it doesn't increase or decrease." I said to him, "I have a decision which will be very important for you," and he said, "What is it?" I said, "It is such and such, we will announce that we are ready to deposit - to contribute with an extra 200 millions to our share, an exceptional payment in order to encourage," and he said, "Ok, I will let you be the first speaker." That was the Vice-President of the World Bank, the one in charge of that matter. He proposed the idea, "We are here to meet and I ask Mr. so and so to be the first speaker," and it happened it succeeded at the time in which it was destined to fail the campaign, it succeeded while it was destined to fail, because of Kuwait, at the time, so much so that McNamara, in the annual meetings, attended by all their Ministers of Finance of the world countries and the Governors of the Central Banks, about 10,000 persons were there and he mentioned Kuwait, in an exceptional manner, for the main role it played in that matter, it succeeded to revive and continue the IDA, which is considered very important for the under developing countries and it went on until today, I mean certain cases like that has have a very big effect for countries like the State of Kuwait and it is mentioned, I don't know where but his speech - his speech was recorded based on that.

- Aaa one of the questions that came to my mind, while you were talking, was that we've lately been seeing comments on the aid of Kuwait or its contributions to the Arab countries while aa while - while - or aa current aa trends that say there is a financial crisis or something so people mostly have aaa a negative reactions towards the outside aid of Kuwait to some countries aaa did you face, while heading the Kuwait Fund, such objections or such criticism to the amounts or the help Kuwait offers to such countries? Aa -

- When we first started the fund we were told that no one would pay back and the days later on proved after 50 years and more than 50 years that the continuity of the fund in cycles - lending and borrowing, the continuity of payments is an integral part of the Fund's activity and the assets of the Fund what are very huge - 50 billion dollars, I think are the Fund's current ability, the Kuwait fund, I mean the Arab Fund is not, the Arab Fund's capital is less, it's eleven billion Kuwaiti dinars so of course there were those who objected, those who objected for ideological reasons and those who objected for reasons related to ignorance and those who objected for reasons related to the people, if they say so and so we would agree with them so I don't think there was any effect on the Fund's decision nor Kuwait's decision because those decisions by Kuwait were very wise since the beginning. When Sheikh Abdullah Al Salim, may God rest his soul, laid the foundation, he laid the foundation of a very strong institution and I even remember that the President of the World Bank, the first president, he is said to me, "Why is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia starting a project like the Kuwait Fund?" I said to him, "It will," but that was in in the mid-1970s or the late 1970s - in 1978 I told him that it would. In the following morning I opened the New York Times newspaper, I was in New York, at the time, on a mission and I found that Saudi Arabia announced the establishment of a fund I called him and said, "Did you see?" and he said, "No, what's going on?" I didn't expect that it would happen that fast but that's what happened and the example and the role model to be thanked for that was Kuwait and its success was a success for that mission because if it failed at the time, no one would do it or repeat it, as a project.

- Aaa and what was the - the documenting process that - that was followed particularly with the aa continuous questioning of the integrity - the integrity of certain parties, like the parties that lent money in huge numbers, to other countries, what was your policy, at the time, and the policy of documenting in particular for such operations?

- First everything was documented and everything was revised, by outside auditors, and everything was shown in full legal documents and the board of directors was always in charge of the consents and the execution and the execution was always monitored. There has never been any doubt and it has never been said - I don't recall in my history that it was said that there had been a leak or that there had been corruption or what we hear about these days, unfortunately, with the operations of public institutions, on the contrary the fund had well known integrity and a level of integrity which was witnessed and recorded, it wasn't one of the institutions with any doubts about thank God.

- Aa thank God, you mentioned aa a period of time which I feel was very interesting and deserves some aa more details that is the period in which the oil decline took place, I'd like you to tell me more about that period and about projects like the one you mentioned when you suggested the increase in Kuwait's share and so on, were there any similar projects, at the time?

- I don't remember any of them, the work was continuous, we were keen on keeping the work going and on increasing of the resources of the Kuwait Fund, at the time.

- Aa did the Kuwait fund have any projects, in the Gulf countries? Aa you mentioned many projects in Arab countries but tell me a little bit about the Gulf, were there any projects for the Fund in the Gulf?

- The first project for the Fund, in the Gulf, was in Bahrain, it was a station aaa it was the station aaa of - the Alba Aluminum project, they had an aluminum factory and they were looking for sources of finance for it and the Fund was asked for them so I went to Bahrain to study the project.

- We were talking about the projects of the Kuwait Fund for Development in the Gulf countries and you told me about Bahrain.

- The Alba Aluminum project, the aluminum factory and they were looking for extra funds so we went to Bahrain, discussed the matter, evaluated the project and we laid the rules for the project then the project started and it is one of their current projects.

- Did you have other projects, as well, in the other Gulf countries other than Bahrain?

- In 1974 we went to Oman, at the time, to Muscat, Sultan Qaboos, may God rest his soul, had assumed power for a year and we found that the country needed help but they were not ready, at the time, to do anything when we suggested to them to help and we couldn't do anything, at the time, so as to say we did something but there was a concentration, by Kuwait, on the other Gulf countries, particularly the Emirates, at the time, with direct help like in Dubai, Ras Al-Khaimah, Sharjah etc.. through building schools, clinics etc. in the 1950s and the same thing was for Yemen.

- So the activities concentrated on Bahrain, the Emirates and Yemen, most of the Fund's activities and projects were there?

- No, the General Authority for Aid was more concerned with providing aid for the Gulf countries and the south.

- What was its name?

- General Authority for the Arabian Gulf and South Arabian States.

- Aa were you part of it?

- I was aaa I was a member in the board of directors headed by the Foreign Minister, may God rest his soul, Sheikh Sabah, at the time and it was run by Bader Khaled Al Bader then Ahmed Al Saqqaf, may God rest their souls. I was one of the people counted on during their absence I took their place to run the project because I represented the Kuwait Fund and had relations with those countries, we used to go to the Gulf to help them build schools and clinics and we helped their support small projects, it was more of grants than loans.

- Grants and that was in the period from when to when?

- It started in the 1950s, it started and I think until now, I think it's still is going on but I don't know what the situation currently is.

- Did it continue in the same name and with the same approach?

- I don't know about it now; I don't know but when I left the Kuwait Fund it was existent and working.

- Excellent aa I think we can stop here.

- Go ahead.

- Thank you very much--

- You are welcome.

- For this interview aaa I will conclude with a question that might be a little bit personal.

- Go ahead, please.

- You rarely appear on the media.

- Yes.

- Aaa while searching we didn't find for you aa a lot of aaa interviews or television aa appearances aa is that for, as you said earlier, the lack of documenting or is it a personal preference? I would like to know what the reasons are.

- No, I personally prefer not to- unfortunately the media is not in the standard that deserves second, most of the activities are outside not inside and their interests are internal more than external third, the level of the performance of the media is so weak, for example they promise you to come at ten and come at eleven, as if you were free as if you were sitting just waiting for them, that's because they consider themselves distinguished. It happened once that they wanted to record with me and they came to me in the Arab Fund, in a predetermined appointment and they came late and I said to them, "Take your equipment and leave, I am not ready." They called again, in persistence saying, "We want to come," particularly the ones from an American network, at the time. I said to them come at the so and so time because I am not that free to wait for you" but they came before the time. Unfortunately, they don't respect us, they consider themselves more distinguished than others and they consider they are doing you a favor. Third, I don't believe in vanity and the propaganda because I am not aspiring to a post, I am not running for elections I don't have any ambitions more than to do my work, required from me, honestly and quietly, more than anything else. The media is not - unfortunately in the level in which it is supposed to be in. When I was abroad, I used to talk a lot and I gave lectures and took part in forums but internally I didn't do that because there was not that standard of the media institutions. Anyway, I recently had two interviews, after my resignation, one with the Al Aswaq magazine -- the Capital Markets Authority, that will be published there and the second was with the Kuwait Boy Scouts Association and it will also be published in their magazine if you like to see them.

- Of course, we would love to, aa we are keen on knowing more. Aa I'd like to thank you for your time and for your agreeing to this interview.

- You are welcome.

- God willing aa this project will be fulfilled and we will have more projects with you, if your aa time allows for that.

- God willing.

- Aaa any last words you'd like to say?

- Thank you for this good effort, I thank you for documenting a part, which is neglected, of Kuwait's history. Those who lived it will eventually disappear, after a long life, God willing, but it is very important to document such events particularly by an academic institution like the American University in Kuwait and I think your activity is appreciated and that you are kind enough to shoulder, thank you.

- God bless you, thank you very much.

2